The cyberattack revealed an often overlooked part of how health care is paid for in the United States and raised concerns for antitrust advocates about how large UnitedHealth has grown.

Host Dan Weissmann speaks with reporters of Stat News and of The American Prospect about their reporting on the hack and what it says about antitrust enforcement of health care companies.

Credits

Note: “An Arm and a Leg” uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

Dan: Hey there.听

Brittany Trang is a reporter at STAT News– that’s a health care news outlet. We talked with Brittany’s colleague Bob Herman in our last episode. Like Bob, she’s been covering the business of health care.听

And for Brittany, this story starts with Bob flagging a story to their team. He鈥μ�

Brittany Trang: Dropped a link in the chat that said like, hey guys, I think we should write about this, question mark, and nobody replied,听

Dan: The story was about a cyber-attack against a company called Change Healthcare.听

Brittany Trang: I was like that sounds like a startup and I was like who cares about some sort of health tech startup听

Dan: But Bob kept bringing it up.听

Brittany Trang: And I finally clicked on the link, and I was like, oh no, this is a big deal. This touches most of the American healthcare system.听

Dan: Yeah, and it’s no joke. Change Healthcare is what’s called a data clearinghouse. And it’s a big one. It’s an important part of health care’s financial plumbing. Someone had gone in and basically hijacked their computer system and said, Unless we get $22 million dollars, we’re not giving it back. So Change went offline, and a huge chunk of the country’s Pharmacists, doctors, therapists, hospitals just stopped getting paid. And Change Healthcare stayed offline for weeks and weeks. As we record this, seven weeks in, big parts of it remain offline. And here’s this other thing: Change Healthcare is not a startup. It’s been around for like 20 years. And in late 2022, Change got purchased by another company– a company that’s starting to become a real recurring character on this show: UnitedHealth Group.

You may remember: They’re the country’s biggest insurance company AND they’ve got their hands in just about every other part of health care, in a big way. For instance, they’re the very biggest employer of physicians in the country, by a huge margin. They’ve got their own bank, which– among other things– offers payday loans to doctors. And they have a huge collection of companies that do back-end services. In our last episode we heard about Navi Health鈥� and how, under United’s ownership, insurance companies have been using NaviHealth’s algorithm to cut off care for people in nursing homes. [Boy, yeah– that was a fun story鈥 And as we’ve been learning: When one company like this gets so big, their problems– like this cyber-attack– become everybody’s problem. And in this case, everybody’s problem seems to create an opportunity for United. We’ll break down how THAT could possibly work, but obviously it doesn’t seem like the way a lot of us would WANT things to work.. And we’ll end up talking about what we can maybe do about it. Not “we” as in a bunch of individuals trying to tackle an opponent this big. Good luck with that. But “we” as in the “We the people” of the United States Constitution. We may already be on the case.听

This is An Arm and a Leg– a show about why health care costs so freaking much, and what we can maybe do about it. I’m Dan Weissmann. I’m a reporter, and I like a challenge. So our job on this show is to take one of the most enraging, terrifying, depressing parts of American life, and bring you a show that’s entertaining, empowering, and useful.听

We’ll start with an attempt to answer what you’d think would be a simple question: What does Change Healthcare do?

Here’s Brittany Trang from STAT News again.听

Brittany Trang: It’s kind of like Visa or Mastercard or something. Like, when you go to the grocery store and you pay with a credit card, you are not putting your money directly into the pockets of the grocery store. There’s a middleman in there and change is that middleman, but for a ton of different things.

Dan: Like insurance claims. Brittany says hospitals and doctors offices often don’t submit claims directly to insurance companies. They send the claim to a middleman like Change. And then Change figures out where that claim needs to go next. Like: I’m sending a bunch of mail– I put it all in one mailbox, and the post office figures out how to get it where it goes. Except of course, there’s no paper here, no envelopes, no physical packages: All those claims are basically data. Which is why a company like Change is called a data clearinghouse. And even if a given provider uses some other clearinghouse– and of course there are others– Change may still be involved. Because INSURANCE companies like Aetna also use Change as a place to COLLECT claims from providers. On that side, Change is kind of like a post-office box. But claims are just one of the types of data that Change handles. For instance鈥μ�

Brittany Trang: when you went to the pharmacy counter or when you would check in at the doctor’s office and they take your insurance information and figure out like what you’re going to pay for this visit. Both of those processes were messed up.听

Dan: Yeah, and there’s more! Prior authorizations– like when your doctor checks in advance to make sure your insurance company is OK with paying for whatever. Those all go through companies like Change. So, if change is offline, do they do your MRI, or your surgery– and just hope it doesn’t get denied when Change comes back? And once claims get approved, data for payments goes through Change too. So payments– a lot of payments– just stopped going out. Here’s Brittany Trang.听

Brittany Trang: it’s just kind of flabbergasting how big this is. This collapsed most of healthcare in some way or another.听

Dan: Overall, the numbers are wild: Change reportedly processes 1.5 trillion dollars a year in claims. Maybe a third of everything that happens in healthcare. According to the American Hospital Association, 94 percent of hospitals said they were affected. Some more than others. Not all providers use Change as their primary clearinghouse. But lots do. And for them, everything just stopped.听

Brittany Trang: I talked to one provider she’s like, Oh, I can, I can talk. I’m, here today and tomorrow before we close. And I was like, before we close for spring break. And she said, no, we have 3 and 13 cents left in our bank account. Brittany says that provider got a last minute reprieve– an emergency loan from United. There have been two or three rounds of these loans so far, plus some advance payments from Medicare. But as the outage has dragged on– it started in February, and we’re recording this seven weeks later– it’s hard to know if those are going to be enough. At the end of March, I talked with Emily Benson. She runs a therapy practice in a Minneapolis suburb. Eight clinicians, mostly treating kids. She says the practice does maybe 70 or 80 thousand dollars worth of business a month. But then in February鈥� Emily Benson: essentially everything went dark for us.听

Dan: United publicly acknowledged the Change hack on February 21st. But Emily Benson says she didn’t actually get a heads-up until almost a week later.听

Emily Benson: a lot of alarm bells went off, that was the end of the month. And so a lot of payments came due听

Dan: Her rent. Paychecks for her colleagues, and herself.听

Emily Benson: I mean, I was in a panic. Y’know, I didn’t know where I was going to go.听

Dan: She says she usually gets two payments a week from insurance, with everything passing through Change. But it’s not just the payments from insurance. Change also provides the documents that say how much an insurance company is GOING to pay for any given claim.听

Emily Benson: That’s a critical document because that tells me what does the family owe us. And then the beneficiary is also going to get that information. So they’re not surprised by what we charge them. So now every week we’re stacking up and stacking up these amounts that the family’s going to owe us.听

Dan: By the time we talked, Emily Benson had gotten two loans from United. About 40,000 each: maybe a month’s worth of billing for her, between the two loans.听

Emily Benson: That first one was wiped out. Pretty quickly because now we’re on week five I’m working on the second, um, installment that I got from united. But, you know, that’s half gone now too. So I don’t know what the next step is. We’re nowhere near. Getting claims processing yet and so. I’m kind of panicking Yeah.听

Emily Benson: it looks like the terms are within 45 days. You have to pay back that temporary loan. How am I going to do that if I don’t have claims coming?听

Dan: 骋辞诲.听

Emily Benson: I’m still panicking.听

Dan: I’ll bet. Oh my God. You’re very, you’re very calm for somebody in this situation.听

Emily Benson: Well, you know, I’ve had a lot of therapy of my own. That’s how you become a therapist. So panicking doesn’t help anyone.听

Dan: I guess that’s, I’ll take that under advisement.听

Dan: So, to pay back those loans– which are supposed to be repaid within 45 days– Emily Benson is gonna have to start getting paid again. As we spoke, she’d had been living without systems for filing claims and getting paid for five weeks. And even when those systems get moving again, she’s not gonna see all that money right away.

Emily Benson: Imagine the backlog and the clog. Five weeks worth of insurance claims I mean, we’re looking at a major traffic jam.

Dan: Oh myGod.Andif everybody were to work double time for the next five weeks, then it would be 10 weeks. But people can’t really work double time.听

Emily Benson: When you say that out loud,听

Dan: 厂辞谤谤测.听

Emily Benson: I don’t feel as grounded,听

Dan: I’m so sorry.听

Emily Benson: but, but, but it’s probably realistic.听

Dan: Other news outlets are talking to providers like Emily Benson all over the country. We’re recording this in mid-April. United hasn’t responded to our questions on this story, but their website says “We’re determined to make this right.” It says they’ve put out 4 point 7 billion dollars in emergency loans to providers so far. And it says that for the vast majority of Change Healthcare’s services, a restoration date is “still pending.” We have no idea what’s going to happen. What it’ll mean for our doctors, our therapists, our local hospitals. And look, there are elements of this story that go beyond health care. How many of us have personal health information– maybe financial information– that got seized by who the heck knows who in this? And yes, United’s getting some heat. They got a list of pointed questions from U.S. Representative Jamie Raskin. Their CEO is supposed to testify in a Senate hearing at the end of April. But as we’ll get into in a minute, this disaster– United’s disaster– could turn out to have a silver lining– for United: An opportunity to keep on growing. And that opportunity arises precisely because they’re so big, and doing so much business in so many parts of the medical-industrial complex. Which doesn’t sound great. It raises questions about the, uh, potential downsides for a lot of people, when individual companies get this freaking big. And it raises questions about what we can maybe do about it. And the answer is: Maybe more than we think. That’s all coming right up.听

This episode of An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with 蘑菇影院 Health News. That’s a nonprofit newsroom covering health care in America. Their reporters do amazing work, and we’re honored to be in cahoots with them. So, as we’ve seen, a company like United is so big that their problems become everybody’s problem. And at least in one case that I’ve seen so far, everybody’s problem can become United’s opportunity. That’s what happened in Oregon, and a reporter from Washington, DC, was in a position to make it a national story.听

Maureen Tkacik: My name is Maureen Tkacik, but you can call me Mo and I am the Investigations Editor at the American Prospect, and a Senior Fellow at the American Economic Liberties Project.听

Dan: The Prospect is a politically-progressive news magazine, and the Economic Liberties Project is a non-profit that pushes an anti-monopoly agenda. A lot of Mo’s reporting looks at how financial behemoths are looking like monopolists– especially in health care. So鈥μ�

Maureen Tkacik: have come to know United Healthcare, pretty well, over past, year or so,听

Dan: Looking at, for instance, how they gobble up medical practices. And as we mentioned, that kind of gobbling has made United the biggest employer of physicians in the country– by huge margins– in just the last few years. About one doc in ten now works for them, as employees or “affiliates.” As we’ve reported before, big players– like United, like big hospital systems, and like private equity groups– have been gobbling up medical practices for years. And: that kind of consolidation often leads to us paying more– and often for lousier healthcare. Moe Tkacik has been reporting on that kind of gobbling– and recently, she’d been looking at how the state of Oregon had been trying to slow it down. Then, in January 2024, a good-size medical group in Corvallis, Oregon said they were ready for United to gobble them up. The group is called the Corvallis Clinic, and it’s got more than a hundred docs. But United and the Clinic would have to go through a whole process to get approval from state regulators. That process includes: regulators asking the public for comments on the transaction. And in this case鈥μ�

Maureen Tkacik: they were. inundated with comments.听

Dan: Like 378 of them in just a few weeks. And the comments were overwhelmingly AGAINST the sale. In February, the regulators sent United and Corvallis a 5-page list of conditions under which they might approve a deal. A source of Moe’s sent me the document, which he got through a public-records request. The conditions are like, to not reduce service levels in the community for at least 10 years. To keep accepting non-United insurance. And to submit to a lot of monitoring. Then, as negotiations were starting, Change Healthcare went offline. And in early March, Moe got a tip: The clinic and United were gonna make an end run around this process. She talked with an anonymous insider at the clinic. Who told her: It turns out that all of the clinic’s billing had been connected to Change.听

Maureen Tkacik: So we’re talking about just a calamitous cash crunch. Their revenue came to a standstill听

Dan: And by the time Moe’s insider source learned what was up– this had been going on for two weeks.听

Maureen Tkacik: this source said that , Thursday, they all had a meeting and they were not sure they were going to be able to open their doors the following Monday.听

Dan: That was Thursday March 7. The next day, March 8th, lawyers for Corvallis Clinic filed an application for an emergency exemption from the normal review process. A week later, they got that exemption. And this time regulators had not demanded any conditions. As Moe’s story laid out, United’s problem– the Change Healthcare hack– became everybody’s problem, including Corvallis. And their problem seemed to have become United’s opportunity. To gobble up the practice without having to agree to any conditions from pesky regulators. And a postscript to the Corvallis Clinic story: Shortly after regulators approved that deal, United sent notices to thousands of patients at another clinic it had taken over in nearby Eugene, saying basically: We don’t have a doctor for you anymore. Goodbye and good luck. News reports said that clinic had lost more than 30 doctors since United took over. And among the public comments urging regulators to kibosh the Corvallis clinic, a bunch of people cited lousy experiences at that Eugene clinic under United’s ownership. This is the kind of thing that Moe Tkacik and her colleagues at the American Economic Liberties Project– and what’s become a kind of anti-monopoly movement– want to change. And here’s where this episode becomes maybe just a little less of a horror story, and maybe a little more of an action movie. Because the anti-monopoly movement has gotten a big backer in the last three years: The Biden Administration. In 2017, a woman named Lina Khan made a name for herself in legal circles when she published a paper arguing that Amazon had become the kind of super-dominant company that antitrust laws were designed to constrain. Lina Khan was a law student when she published that paper. In 2021, Joe Biden appointed her to lead the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC and the Department of Justice split the job of antitrust enforcement, and they’ve both become super-aggressive. They’ve filed big lawsuits against Google, Amazon, and– in March of this year– Apple. And gotten a fair amount of attention. As we were writing up this episode, Jon Stewart interviewed Lina Khan on “The Daily Show.” And here’s how she described her approach in that conversation.听

LK: We’ve really focused on how companies are behaving. Are they behaving in ways that suggest they can harm their customers, harm their suppliers, harm their workers, and get away with it? And that type of too big to care type approach is really what ends up signaling that a company has monopoly power because they can start mistreating you, but they know you’re stuck.听

Dan: Earlier this year, the Wall Street Journal reported that Lina Khan’s allies– antitrust folks at the Department of Justice are investigating United. Neither the Justice Department nor United has commented on that report. Meaning: Nobody’s denied it. So far, some of the Biden administration’s antitrust lawsuits have pan out, and some haven’t. Actually, in 2021, the Justice Department sued to prevent UnitedHealth Group from buying Change Healthcare. That one, they lost. But when the sued to block Penguin Random House from buying another giant publisher, Simon and Schuster, they won. And as Lina Khan told Jon Stewart, she and her colleagues aren’t just suing to prevent mergers. They sued to get infamous Pharma Bro Martin Skhreli banned for life from the pharma trade. And they won. And they’re looking at other ways big companies, especially in health care, screw people.听

LK: Just to give you one example, inhalers. They’ve been around for decades, but they still cost hundreds of dollars. So our staff took a close look and we’ve realized the, some of the patents that had been listed for these inhalers were improper. There were bogus. And so we sent hundreds of warning letters around these patents. And in the last few weeks, we’ve seen companies deal list these patents and three out of the four major manufacturers have now said, Within a couple of months, they’re going to cap how much Americans pay to just 35.听

Dan: I think we should start paying a lot more attention to what Lina Khan and her colleagues are up to– and what their chances are. I’ve started reading up, and getting in touch with folks who are in this fight, and who are watching it closely. Because this is looking like the kind of action movie I kind of like. Meanwhile, I’m posting a link to Jon Stewart’s interview with Lina Khan wherever you’re listening to this. I’ll have a few other links for you in our newsletter– you can sign up for that at arm and a leg show dot com, slash, newsletter. And I’ll catch you in a few weeks. Till then, take care of yourself.听

This episode of an arm and a leg was produced by me, Dan Weissmann, with help from Emily Pisacreta, and edited by Ellen Weiss. Big thanks this time to the novelist, journalist and activist Cory Doctorow, who has been writing about the antitrust revival for years, breaking down complex, technical stories in clear, accessible ways. Thanks to professor Spencer Waller from the Loyola University Chicago law school for talking about antitrust with me. And thanks to Dr. John Santa in Oregon– for sharing material he got via a public-records request to the state, and for his observations. Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard. Our music is by Dave Weiner and blue dot sessions. Extra music in this episode from Epidemic Sound. Gabrielle Healy is our managing editor for audience. She edits the first aid kit newsletter. Bea Bosco is our consulting director of operations. Sarah Ballama is our operations manager. And Armand a Leg is produced in partnership with 蘑菇影院 Health News. That’s a national newsroom producing in depth journalism about healthcare in America and a core program at 蘑菇影院, an independent source of health policy research, polling and journalism. Zach Dyer is senior audio producer at 蘑菇影院 Health News. He’s editorial liaison to this show. And thanks to the Institute for Nonprofit News for serving as our fiscal sponsor, allowing us to accept tax exempt donations. You can learn more about INN at INN. org. Finally, thanks to everybody who supports this show financially– you can join in any time at arm and a leg show dot com, slash, support– and thanks for listening.

“An Arm and a Leg” is a co-production of 蘑菇影院 Health News and Public Road Productions.

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Some justices suggested the Supreme Court had said its piece on abortion law when it overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022. This term, however, the court has agreed to review another abortion case. At issue is whether a federal law requiring emergency care in hospitals overrides Idaho’s near-total abortion ban. A decision is expected by summer.

Meanwhile, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid finalized the first-ever minimum staffing requirements for nursing homes participating in the programs. But the industry argues that there are not enough workers to hire to meet the standards.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of 蘑菇影院 Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins University’s nursing and public health schools and Politico Magazine, Tami Luhby of CNN, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Panelists

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• This week’s Supreme Court hearing on emergency abortion care in Idaho was the first challenge to a state’s abortion ban since the overturn of the constitutional right to an abortion. Unlike previous abortion cases, this one focused on the everyday impacts of bans on abortion care 鈥� cases in which pregnant patients experienced medical emergencies.
• Establishment medical groups and doctors themselves are getting more vocal and active as states set laws on abortion access. In a departure from earlier political moments, some major medical groups are campaigning on state ballot measures.
• Medicaid officials this week finalized new rules intended to more closely regulate managed-care plans that enroll Medicaid patients. The rules are intended to ensure, among other things, that patients have prompt access to needed primary care doctors and specialists.
• Also this week, the Federal Trade Commission voted to ban most “noncompete” clauses in employment contracts. Such language has become common in health care and prevents not just doctors but other health workers from changing jobs 鈥� often forcing those workers to move or commute to leave a position. Business interests are already suing to block the new rules, claiming they would be too expensive and risk the loss of proprietary information to competitors.
• The fallout from the cyberattack of Change Healthcare continues, as yet another group is demanding ransom from UnitedHealth Group, Change’s owner. UnitedHealth said in a statement this week that the records of “a substantial portion of America” may be involved in the breach.

Plus for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: NBC News’ “,” by Liz Szabo.听听

Alice Miranda Ollstein: States Newsroom’s “,” by Kelcie Moseley-Morris.听听

Tami Luhby: The Associated Press’ “,” by Emily Wagster Pettus.听听

Joanne Kenen: States Newsroom’s “,” by Rudi Keller.听听

Also mentioned on this week’s podcast:

• American Economic Review’s “?” by Zarek Brot-Goldberg, Zack Cooper, Stuart Craig, and Lev Klarnet.
• 蘑菇影院 Health News’ “Medical Providers Still Grappling With UnitedHealth Cyberattack: 鈥楳ore Devastating Than Covid,” by Samantha Liss.

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for 蘑菇影院 Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 25, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this, so here we go.

We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Tami Luhby of CNN.

Tami Luhby: Hello.

Rovner: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins University schools of public health and nursing and Politico Magazine.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: No interview this week, but wow, tons of news, so we are going to get right to it. We will start at the Supreme Court, which yesterday heard oral arguments in a case out of Idaho over whether the federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, or EMTALA, trumps Idaho’s almost complete abortion ban. This is the second abortion case the high court has heard in as many months and the first to actively challenge a state’s abortion ban since the overturn of Roe v. Wade in 2022. Last month’s case, for those who have forgotten already, was about the FDA approval of the abortion pill mifepristone. Alice, you and I both listened to these arguments. Did you hear any hints on which way the court might be leaning here?

Ollstein: The usual caveat that you can’t always tell by the questions they ask. Sometimes they play devil’s advocate or it’s not indicative of how they will rule on the case, but it did seem that at least a couple of the court’s conservatives were interested in really taking a tough look at Idaho’s argument. Obviously, some of the other conservatives were very much in support of Idaho’s argument that its doctors should not be compelled to perform abortions for patients experiencing a medical emergency. It really struck me from the arguments how much it focused on what’s actually going on on the ground.

That was a huge departure from a lot of other Supreme Court arguments and a lot of Supreme Court arguments on abortion where it’s a lot of hypotheticals and getting into the legal weeds. This was just like they were reading these concrete, reported stories of what’s been happening in Idaho and other states because of these abortion bans. People turned away while they were actively miscarrying, people being flown across state lines to receive timely care. I think whether that will make a difference that the justices are sort of being confronted with the concrete ramifications of the Dobbs [v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization] decision or not remains to be seen.

Rovner: I thought one of the things that it looked like very much like last month’s argument is that the women justices were very much about real details and talking about medical conditions, about ectopic pregnancies and premature rupture of membranes and things that none of the men mentioned at all. The men were sort of very legalistic and the women, including Amy Coney Barrett, who voted to overturn Roe v. Wade, were very much all about, as you said, what’s going on on the ground and what this distinction means. I mean, where we are is that Idaho has an exception in its abortion ban, but only for the life of the woman. Whereas EMTALA says you have to stabilize someone in an emergency situation and it’s been interpreted by the federal government to say sometimes that stabilization means terminating a pregnancy, as in the case of premature rupture of membranes or an ectopic pregnancy or a case where the woman is going to hemorrhage and is actively hemorrhaging.

That question of where that line is, between what’s an immediate threat to life and what’s just a threat to health or a threat to life soon, was the crux of this case. And it really does feel uncomfortably like we have nine Supreme Court justices making, really, medical decisions.

Ollstein: Yeah, it struck me how Amy Coney Barrett seemed to get pretty frustrated with Idaho’s attorney at a couple points. Idaho’s attorney was saying kind of, “Nothing to see here. There’s no problem. Since we allow lifesaving abortions and that’s what is required under EMTALA, there’s no conflict.” So Amy Coney Barrett was like, “Well, why are you here then? Why are you before us?” The reason is that they’re trying to get this lower-court injunction lifted even though it’s not in effect right now. The other point she got kinda testy was when Idaho was saying that their law is clear, doctors know what to do, and Amy Coney Barrett asked, “Well, couldn’t a prosecutor come in later and disagree and said, “Oh, you performed an abortion you said was to save someone’s life, but I don’t think it was necessary to save her life and I’m going to charge you criminally?” And the Idaho attorney conceded that that could happen.

So I think her vote could potentially be in play, but I don’t know if it’s going to be enough to overcome the court’s conservatives who are very skeptical that EMTALA should compel states to do anything.

Rovner: So the medical community has been quite outspoken in this case. The American Medical Association, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the American College of Emergency Physicians have all filed briefs saying the Idaho ban could require them to violate professional ethics, wrote the immediate president of the AMA, Jack Resnick, in an op-ed. “It is reckless for Idaho to tell emergency physicians that they must ignore their moral and ethical standards and stand by while a septic patient begins to lose kidney function or when a hemorrhaging patient faces only a 30% chance of death.” But I feel like the medical profession has long since lost control of the abortion issue. I mean, is there any chance here that they might prevail? I have to say this week I’ve gotten so many emails from so many doctor groups saying, “Oh my goodness, look what’s happening. They’re going to put us in this impossible situation.” To which I want my response to be, “Where have you been for the last 20 years?”

Ollstein: I mean, I think it is notable that these establishment medical groups are becoming more vocal. I mean, some might say better late than never, and I think in some instances they are having an impact at the state level. They have pushed some state legislatures to add or expand exemptions to abortion bans. But a lot of times Republican lawmakers have rejected calls from state medical associations to do that, and so I think filing amicus briefs is a way to have your say, lobbying at the state level is a way to have your say. Some doctors are even running for office specifically on this issue. And also, medical groups are campaigning hard on these state abortion referendums. I reported on doctor groups door-knocking in Ohio, for instance, before that referendum won big.

I think it’s really interesting to see the medical community get a lot more vocal on something they’ve either tried to stay out of or been vocal on the other side on in the past, but we’ll have to see how much impact that actually has.

Rovner: Well, one thing this case highlights is how pregnant women who experience complications that can threaten their health or future fertility, but are not immediately life-threatening, can end up in really terrible circumstances, as we heard in a number of anecdotes at the oral arguments. The Associated Press “FOIA’d”[requested Freedom of Information Act] EMTALA pregnancy complaint records from several states with abortion bans and found some pretty horrific examples, including one woman who miscarried in the emergency room lobby restroom after she was turned away from the registration desk. Another who was turned away and ended up giving birth in a car on the way to another hospital. That baby died. These are not people who go to the emergency room in search of abortions. They’re women who are trying to maintain pregnancies. Is the concept that people ending up in the most horrific situations are often those who most want children, is that finally getting through here?

Ollstein: What struck me most about that reporting is that the documents they got were just from the first few months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, so we have no idea what’s happening now. It could be better, it could be much worse, it could be the same. I think that lack of transparency makes this really hard to report on accurately. And the fact that it took The AP a year to even get those few heavily redacted documents speaks to the challenge here. We want an accurate picture of how these bans are impacting the provision of health care around the country, and it’s really hard to get.

Rovner: I know the Biden administration has been kind of trying to keep this quiet. I mean, not out there sort of blaring what’s happening. They’ve been sort of leaving that to the politics side and this is obviously the policy side. Obviously on the politics side, the Biden administration is getting bolder about using abortion as a campaign issue. The president himself gave a speech in Florida where a six-week ban is set to take effect next week and pinned all the abortion restrictions directly on former President Trump, who he pointed out has taken credit for them. Biden actually said the word abortion twice in that speech. I was listening very closely and went back and counted. I think that’s a first. They’re definitely stepping up the pressure politically, right?

Ollstein: Yes. The Biden campaign is leaning very hard on this. Even in states where it’s debatable whether they have a chance, like Florida, I think that there’s an interest, especially after seeing all of these referendums and ballot measures win big. It’s really shown Democrats that this is a very popular issue to run on, that they shouldn’t be afraid of it, that they should lean into it. I think you are seeing attempts to do that. It’s not always the language that the abortion rights advocacy community wants to hear, but it’s definitely more than we’ve heard from the Biden administration in the past.

I think you’re also seeing an attempt to sort of take the air out of Trump’s “Let’s leave it to states. I am reasonable and moderate” sort-of pitch. By highlighting what’s happening on the ground in certain states, it’s an attempt to say, “OK, you want to leave it to states? Then you own all of this. You own every woman being turned away from a hospital while she’s miscarrying. You own every instance of a ban going into effect and people having to travel across state lines,” et cetera. But whether just blaming Trump and arguing that he would be worse is enough versus saying what Biden would actually do and continue to do, I think that’s what we’ve heard people want to hear more of. Although there has been some action from the Biden administration recently.

Rovner: That was just going to be my next question. The one policy change the Biden administration did do this week was finalized a rule expanding the health records protections under HIPAA to abortion information. Why was this important? It sounds pretty nerdy.

Ollstein: This has been in the works for more than a year. A lot of people have been wondering why it’s been taking so long and worried that if it took even longer, it would be easier to get rid of it if a new administration takes over. But essentially this is to make it harder for states to reach across state lines to try to obtain information and use it to prosecute for having an abortion. It’s an attempt to better protect that data and so we heard a lot of praise after the announcement came out from abortion rights groups and some medical groups, and I would anticipate some groups on the right would sue. I’ve seen some complaints saying this will prevent law enforcement from investigating actual crimes against people, and so I expect to see some legal challenges soon.

Kenen: There are all sorts of efforts to stop both travel for abortion. There are also laws on books already, there have been for a number of years, about helping a minor cross state lines for abortion. There’s the attempts to stop the shipment of abortion pills from a legal state into a state that has a ban. There’s all sorts of things where, whether the intent is to actually prosecute a woman or a pregnant person, versus collecting evidence for some kind of larger crackdown or prosecution, this is potentially a piece 鈥� patient records are potentially a piece of that. We’ve talked a few weeks ago, maybe a month or two ago by now, about some Texas communities that wanted to say, “If you drive on the road in our town on the way to an abortion, we’re going to arrest you.” How they figure out logistically and practically 鈥� What are you going to do? Stop everybody on the road and give them a pregnancy test?

I mean, I don’t know how you enforce that, but just that these ideas are out there and on the books through this privacy shield. We have privacy under HIPAA, all of us, so to interpret it this way, or reinforce it depending on your political point of view, undermine excessively, whatever, but this is sort of pivotal because there’s so many ways these records could be used in various kinds of legislative and prosecutorial ways.

Rovner: As you point out, it’s not theoretical. We’ve seen attorneys general 鈥� Indiana and Kansas 鈥� and some other states, actually, and Texas say that they want to go after these records, so it’s not 鈥�

Kenen: Right and we’ve seen cases of the child rape victim and the prosecutor, what happened with the doctor, and so it’s not theoretical. It’s not widespread right now, but it’s not theoretical. Whether the pregnancy was planned and wanted or it was unplanned and ended up being wanted, going through a pregnancy loss is not just medically difficult, depending on when in pregnancy it occurs and under what circumstances. It can be medically quite complicated and it’s emotionally devastating. So to just get pulled into these political legal fights when you’ve already been bleeding in the parking lot or whatever, or having lost a pregnancy, it’s like you forget these are human beings. These are people going through medical crises.

Rovner: Indeed. Well, abortion is far from the only big health news this week. On Monday, the Biden administration finalized more long-awaited rules regarding staffing in nursing homes that participate in Medicare or Medicaid. Tami, what’s in these rules and why is the concept that nursing homes should have nurses on duty so controversial?

Luhby: It is very controversial and it’s also very consequential. So on Monday, as you said, the Biden administration finalized the first-ever minimum staffing rules at nursing homes involved in Medicare and Medicaid, and they say it’s crucial for patient safety and quality of care. It requires that all nursing homes provide a total of at least 3.48 hours of nursing care per resident per day, including defined periods of care from registered nurses and from nurses’ aides. Plus, nursing homes must have a registered nurse on-site at all times, which is different than the rules now. Now, CMS [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] is giving the nursing homes some time to staff up. The mandate will be phased in over three years with rural communities having up to five years and they’re also giving temporary exemptions for facilities in areas with workforce shortages that demonstrate a good faith effort to hire. When I spoke to [Department of Health and Human Services] Secretary [Xavier] Becerra about the nursing home industry’s vocal concerns that this could cause a lot of nursing homes to close or limit admissions, he said, “Well, a business model that is based on understaffing is not a very good business model and is dangerous for patients.”

So, it’s going to be a heavy lift for nursing homes. According to HHS, 75% of them will have to hire staff, including 12,000 registered nurses and 77,000 aides. And also, 22% of them will need to hire registered nurses to meet the around-the-clock mandate. The nursing home operators, not surprisingly, have strongly pushed back on this rule even back when it was first proposed in September, saying that they’re already having staffing problems amid a nationwide shortage of nurses. The American Health Care Association called the mandate an unreasonable standard that only threatens to shut down more nursing homes, displace hundreds of thousands of residents, and restrict seniors’ access to care.

Rovner: We should point out the American Health Care Association is the lobbying group for nursing homes.

Luhby: Yes. What’s interesting also, though, is that on the other side, you have advocacy groups that are saying that it doesn’t go far enough and they’re citing a 2001 CMS study that found that nursing home residents need at least 4.1 hours of daily care. To add to all of this, if it’s not complicated and controversial enough, Congress is getting involved and is also split over the rules. Some lawmakers, like Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bob Casey, generally support it, but nearly a hundred House members from both parties wrote to HHS Secretary Becerra expressing their concern that the mandate could lead to nursing home closures. And there’s a bipartisan Senate bill and a House Republican bill that would prohibit HHS from finalizing the rule. So we have time before this goes into effect. It goes into effect in phases, and we’ll see if lawmakers move to block the mandate or if the courts do, but it’s going to be interesting to watch how this plays out.

Rovner: Joanne wanted to add something.

Kenen: Well, first of all, as we say frequently, there’s always lawsuits. We have a health care/lawsuit system, so it’s not over. But I think the other thing is I think families who put a loved one in a nursing home don’t understand how little nursing, let alone doctoring, goes on. The name is “nursing” home and people expect there to be a nurse there, meaning a registered nurse. I think people often think there’s a doctor there, where the doctors are not there very much. That’s one reason the lack of medical care on-site, not only could there be emergencies, but I mean even things that could be treated in place if there is a physician. I mean, it’s just dial 911 and put them in an ambulance and send them to the hospital. And we do have this problem with hospital readmission, which is not just a cost problem and a regulatory problem, it’s really bad for patients to 鈥� the continuity of care is good and lack of continuity and handoffs and change, sending people back-and-forth is not good for them.

Obviously, there are times there’s an emergency and you need to send someone to a hospital, but not always. If there was a doctor or nurse, there’s some things that you don’t have to call 911 for. Because you don’t know or don’t learn about nursing homes until you have a relative there or until you’re a reporter who has to write about them. You don’t realize that they’re very custodial and there’s not a lot of taken care of in terms of getting assistance in bathing and walking and things like that. There’s less medical care, including nursing care, than people realize until your loved one is there. I mean, when I covered them the first time, I was really shocked. I mean, it’s 20 years ago the first time I wrote about it, but my assumption of what was there and what is actually there was a big gap.

Rovner: Tami.

Luhby: One thing also, though is 鈥� I mean, yes, that is definitely true about the medical care, but we’re also talking about just the care, not only the nursing. But that’s why so many aides need to be hired because you also have situations in nursing homes where people aren’t getting help to go to the bathroom, aren’t getting showered regularly, aren’t being watched. Maybe they’re trying to go to the bathroom themselves and they’re falling because they have to go. I mean, unfortunately, I’ve had experience with nursing homes with my family and I’ve seen this. But also I think it’s been pretty well reported in a lot of publications and studies and such. But there are a lot of problems in nursing homes, in general, and staffing.

Rovner: Well, just to talk about how long this is going on, former Sen. David Pryor died this week. When he was a House member, he rather famously went undercover at a nursing home to try and spotlight. That was when we first started to hear about some of the conditions in nursing homes. He was instrumental in doing the work that got the original federal nursing home standards passed in 1987, which was the first time I covered this issue, and even then there was a big fight in 1987 about should there be a staffing mandate? It’s like, hello, if we’re going to improve care in nursing homes, maybe we should make sure there are enough people to provide care. Even then the nursing home industry was saying, “But we have a shortage. We can’t hire enough people to actually do this if you give us a staffing mandate.” So literally, this has gone back-and-forth since 1987. And, as Joanne points out, it’s still in all likelihood not over, but one could sort of think, gee, they’ve had two generations now to come up with enough people to work in these nursing homes. Maybe Becerra is right. Maybe there’s something wrong with the business model?

Luhby: I was going to say, we know the business model is also moving more towards private equity, which is not necessarily going to be as concerned with the staffing levels. We know that the staffing levels 鈥� I think there’ve been studies that show that staffing levels are generally lower in investor-owned nursing homes. So there’s that.

Kenen: There’ve been a lot of demographic changes. I mean, you live longer, but you don’t always live healthier. We have families that are spread out. Not everybody’s living in the same town anymore. I mean, they haven’t for a number of decades now, but your daughter-in-law is 3,000 miles away. She can’t come to your house every day. At the same time, we do have a push and it’s not brand-new, it’s a number of years now, to do more home- and community-based care, but there are shortages and waiting lists and problems there, too. So there are a lot of people who need institutional care. Whether they wanted to have that or not, that’s where they go because either there’s not enough community support or they don’t have the family to fill in the gaps or they’re too medically complicated or whatever. Given the demographic trends and the degree of chronic disease and disability, this is not going away. It’s like Julie said, it’s way overdue. We need to figure it out. There are workforce shortages to train more CRNAs [certified registered nurse anesthetists] like the trained aides. It’s not a five-, six-year program. I mean, this can be done and is done somewhere in community colleges. You can do this. You can improve at all levels. You need more nurse RNs, nurses or advanced practice nurses, but you also need more of everything else. People who go to work in these jobs, by and large, do want to provide quality, compassionate care, and it’s hard to do if there are not enough of you.

Rovner: But they’re also super hard jobs and super stressful and super physically demanding.

Kenen: Hoisting and 鈥�

Rovner: Yeah, yeah. And not well-paid.

Kenen: Keeping track of a lot of stuff.

Rovner: Well, in a related move, the Biden administration this week also finalized rules that will attempt to make the quality of Medicaid managed-care plans more transparent. Among other things, the rules establish national wait time limits for certain types of medical care and require states to conduct secret shopper surveys of insurance provider networks to make sure there are enough practitioners available to serve the patient population. The administration says these rules are needed because so many Medicaid patients are now in managed care and regulations just haven’t kept up. Will these be enough to actually protect these often very vulnerable populations? I mean, obviously these people are not quite as vulnerable as people in nursing homes, but they’re kind of the next level down.

Kenen: Well, I think that we’ve seen a history of waves of regulation. Then whatever the status quo becomes, it doesn’t stay the status quo. Whether, as Tami mentioned, there’s more private equity or there’s monopolization and consolidation or just new state regulation. I mean, it’s not static. Do we know how this move is going to play out? No. Do we assume that the bad actors who don’t want to comply will find new ways of doing things that in five years we’ll have another set of regulations that we’ll be talking about? I mean, unfortunately, that’s the way things work. Some regulatory approaches or legal approaches work and others just sort of morph. There’s a lot of history of innovative great actors and lousy bad actors.

Rovner: I say it’s been a big week for federal regulation because we also have breaking news from the Federal Trade Commission, of all places. On Tuesday, the commissioners voted to finalize rules banning most noncompete clauses in employment contracts. At an event here at 蘑菇影院, the FTC chair, Lina Kahn, said a surprisingly large number of comments about that proposed rule came from health care workers. Here’s a snippet from that conversation.

Lina Khan: There were a whole bunch of comments that said, “I signed this, but it’s not like I was exercising real choice. It felt coercive.” We also heard a lot about the effect of these noncompetes and the way that, especially in rural areas, if you want to switch employers and there’s really only one other option locally, if a noncompete is barring you from taking a job with that other hospital, practically to change jobs you have to leave the state. Right? And just how destructive and devastating that is for people and their families, especially if they’re choosing between staying in a job where the employer realizes that this is a captive employee and they don’t really have to compete in offering them better opportunities, better wages, and having to instead think about uprooting their family. We also heard from doctors who did not uproot their families, but instead just commuted hours and hours a day driving. People saying, “For five years I didn’t really see my kids at all awake, ever, because I was always on the road because of this noncompete.” So just really vivid stories from people.

Rovner: So even though the vote was less than 48 hours ago, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce has already filed suit to block the rules as have some smaller business groups. Why do businesses think they need to prevent workers from changing jobs near where they live? I mean, you could see it for people who’ve invented something. You don’t want them to walk out the door with proprietary secrets, but baristas at Starbucks and even nurses are not walking out with trade secrets.

Kenen: Well, I mean, this is common in doctors’ employment contracts, nurses, it’s everything. I think it’s partly because there are provider shortages in some places and they want to keep the workforce they have instead of having them be lured across town to a competitor where they could be paid more and then you have to pay even more to hire the next one. So that’s part of it. It’s economic. A lot of it’s economic. I mean, there’s some fear of patients going with a certain beloved provider, a doctor goes somewhere else. But I think it’s basically they don’t want churn. They don’t want to have to keep paying more. Somebody gets a job offer across the street and they don’t want to take it. They like where they are, but they’re going to ask for more money. It’s largely economic in a market where there’s scarcity of some specialties and certainly nursing. I mean, there’s questions about are there are not enough nurses? Or are we just putting them in the wrong places? But speaking generally, there’s a nursing shortage and physicians, we don’t have enough primary care providers. We certainly don’t have enough geriatricians. We don’t have enough mental health providers. We don’t have enough of a lot of things. This helps the employer, in this case, the health system, usually.

Rovner: I have to say it was only in the last couple of years that I even became aware there were noncompetes in health care. I mean, I knew about them for weathercasters on local stations. It’s like if you leave, you have to go to another station in another city. I had absolutely no idea that they were so common, as you point out, for so many economic reasons. Obviously this has also already been challenged in court, so we’ll have to see how that plays out.

Also this week on the , we have a paper from three health economists published in the American Economic Review who calculated that if the Federal Trade Commission had been more aggressive about flagging and potentially blocking hospital mergers just between 2010 and 2015, health care prices could have been 5% lower. Researchers blame the FTC’s limited budget, but you have to wonder if that budget is limited because business has so much clout in Washington and really doesn’t want eager regulators snooping into their potentially anticompetitive practices. I mean, the FTC has been around for 120-some years now. Occasionally it tries to do big things like with these noncompetes, but mostly it doesn’t do as much as obviously economists and people who study it think that it could do. I mean, we certainly have problems with lack of competition in health care.

Ollstein: I think we have an unusually aggressive FTC right now, so it’ll be really interesting to see what they can accomplish in whatever time this administration has remaining to it, which remains to be seen. I have seen some more aggressive action from the agency in the past on things like payday lending and some of these other sort of maybe more fringy sectors of the economy. So to take on health care, which is so central and such a behemoth and, like you said, there’s so much political power behind it, as Joanne said, guarantee of lawsuits and coverage from us forever basically.

Kenen: The other point that’s worth making, I don’t think any of us have said this, it doesn’t apply to nonprofit hospitals or health systems, and that’s a lot of 鈥� market-dominant health care systems that are nonprofits, nominally their tax status is nonprofit. It’s a very confusing term to normal people, but these bans on noncompetes do not apply to the nonprofit sector, which is a lot of health care.

Rovner: Yet still it’s set off quite a conflagration since they passed this on Tuesday. Well, finally this week, speaking of big health care business, we are still seeing ramifications from that Change Healthcare hack back in February. While UnitedHealth Group, which owns Change, says things are approaching normality, that’s not the case for providers who still can’t submit bills or collect payments except doing it on paper. Meanwhile, in what’s going to be some kind of movie or miniseries someday, a second group is now demanding ransom after publishing some of the stolen data. If you’ve been following this story along with us, you’ll remember that United reportedly already paid a ransom of $22 million, except that it appears that the group that got that money stiffed the group that actually has control of the pirated data.

Oh, and buried in UnitedHealthcare’s news “update” posted on its website, it says protected health information, “which could cover a substantial proportion of people of America,” is involved in the hack. Can this get any worse?

Kenen: Snakes? I don’t think any of us journalists can quite comprehend. I mean, we understand intellectually, but I don’t think we understand what it’s like to be the billing clerk at a major practice right now trying to figure out what’s where and how to get paid and what it means for patients and what’s next. I mean, this is a tremendous hack, but it’s not the last.

Rovner: Yeah, and the idea that I think 鈥� what did they say? 鈥� 1 out of every 3 health care transactions goes through Change, I certainly wasn’t aware of. I think most reporters who are covering this weren’t aware of. I think certainly none of the public was aware of, that there’s that much of the money-changing that goes on from one, as we now know, vulnerable organization is a little bit scary.

Luhby: It shows the power of UnitedHealth[care] in the market. I mean, it’s the largest insurer and people think of it, “OK, I have insurance through it,” but they don’t realize all of the other tentacles that are attached.

Kenen: It also shows that there’s hack after hack after hack after hack. This company knew that they were big and powerful and central, and many of us never heard of them or barely knew what they were. But they knew what they were and despite all the warnings of the need for better and higher protection, cybersecurity protections, these things are going on still. I don’t have the technical expertise to know, well, OK, everybody’s doing everything they’re supposed to do as a health system, but the hackers are just always a step ahead. Or whether they’re really not doing everything they’re supposed to do and weak links in their own chains. Is it the diabolical geniuses? Or is it people still not taking this seriously enough?

Rovner: I will add that in our discussion with FTC Chair Lina Kahn, she did talk about cybersecurity as something that the FTC is going to be looking at in deciding whether there is unfair competition going on. Also, she has promised to come on the podcast, so hopefully we will get her in the next several weeks.

All right, that is the news for this week. Now it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Tami, you were the first in, why don’t you go first this week?

Luhby: Well, my extra credit is an AP story by Emily Wagster Pettus titled “.” This story brings us up to date on the negotiations between the House and Senate in Mississippi over expanding Medicaid. Just a quick refresher for listeners: Mississippi is one of 10 states that hasn’t expanded Medicaid yet, and this is the first time, and it’s really very consequential that the Republican-led legislature has seriously considered doing so. The problem is the House and Senate versions are very, very different. The House bill is more like a traditional Medicaid expansion, providing coverage for those earning up to 138% of the poverty level, although it would also try to institute a work requirement, and about 200,000 people would gain coverage. But the Senate version would only extend coverage to those earning up to 100% of the poverty level, which the Senate Medicaid committee chair thought would add about 40,000 to the program, and it would also come with a very strict work requirement.

So on Tuesday, lawmakers met to try to hash out a compromise. They did so in public. It was a public meeting recorded, which was very unusual, and apparently there were people waiting hours to get in. It was standing room only. The House offered a plan that would cover people earning up to 100% of the poverty level under Medicaid, while those earning between 100% and 138% would receive subsidies to buy insurance through the ACA exchange. But the Senate did not offer a proposal nor immediately respond to the one in the House. There are more meetings scheduled. I think there was another one yesterday. It remains to be seen what will happen, but the clock is ticking. The state legislature only is in session until May 5, and it doesn’t give them much time.

Another wrinkle is that it’s important to note that Gov. Tate Reeves, a Republican, has repeatedly voiced his opposition to Medicaid expansion in recent months and is likely to veto any bill. So if lawmakers do eventually agree on a compromise, they may very well also have to vote on whether to override the veto by the governor. This happened in Kansas in 2017 where the legislature did pass Medicaid expansion, Republican governor vetoed it, and the legislature was not able to override the veto and it never got that far again.

Rovner: So yes, we will keep our eyes on Mississippi. Thank you for the update. Alice, why don’t you go next?

Ollstein: I have a piece from States Newsroom related to the Supreme Court arguments on Idaho’s abortion ban and its impact on pregnant patients. The piece [“”] is about the increase in patients being airlifted out of the state on these Life Flight [Network] emergency transports and the situation and doctors’ hesitancy to provide abortion care, even when they feel it’s medically necessary, is leading to this increase in flying patients to Oregon and Washington and Utah and neighboring states. It’s getting to the point where some doctors are even recommending people who are pregnant or planning to be pregnant purchase memberships in these flight companies, which normally is only recommended for people who do extreme outdoor sports who may need to be rescued or who ride motorcycles. So the fact that just being pregnant is becoming a category in which you are recommended to have this kind of insurance is pretty wild.

Rovner: Yeah. Welcome to 2024. Joanne.

Kenen: This is a piece from the Missouri Independent, which is also part of the States Newsroom, by Rudi Keller, and the headline is “.” That doesn’t sound quite as dramatic as this story really is. It’s about a mother who’s been trying to find out how her son was left unprotected, and he died by suicide, hanged himself in solitary confinement, when he had a history of mental illness. He was serving time for robbery. He wasn’t a murderer. I mean, he was obviously in prison. He had done something wrong, very wrong. He had had a 13-year sentence. But he had a history of mental illness. He had a history of past suicide attempts. He had been taken off some of his drugs, and she has been trying to find out what happened. But it’s not just her. There are other cases. The number of deaths in Missouri prisons has actually gone up in the last few years, even though the prison population itself has gone down. The headline is sort of the tip of a rather sad iceberg.

Rovner: Prison health care, I think, is something that people are starting to look at more closely, but there’s a lot of stories there to be done. Well, my story this week is from my friend and former colleague Liz Szabo, and it’s called “.” Now, this was a study of women on Medicare who were hospitalized, so not everybody, and the difference was small, but statistically significant. Those women treated by women doctors were slightly less likely to die in the ensuing 30 days than those treated by male doctors. It’s not entirely clear why, but at least part of it is that women tend to take other women’s problems more seriously, and women patients may be more likely to open up to other women doctors.

It’s another data point in trying to close the gap between women and men and the gap between people of color and white people when it comes to health care. So more studies to come.

OK, that is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks as always to our technical guru, Francis Ying, and our editor, Emmarie Huetteman. As always, you can email us your comments or questions to whatthehealth, all one word, @kff.org. Or you can still find me at X, I’m . Joanne, where do you hang these days?

Kenen: Occasionally on X , but not very much, and on threads .

Rovner: Tami?

Luhby: Best place is .

Rovner: There you go. Alice?

Ollstein: on X, and on Bluesky.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Lawmakers in Washington this week held the first congressional hearing on the Change Healthcare cyberattack, a breach that sent shock waves through the health care system as payments for care ground to a halt and left some providers in financial trouble. Republicans and Democrats alike zeroed in on how big health care conglomerations 鈥� like Change’s parent company, UnitedHealth Group 鈥� are leaving patients vulnerable.

And nearly 1 in 4 adults who lost Medicaid coverage in the past year are now uninsured, according to a new 蘑菇影院 survey probing the effects of what’s known as the “unwinding” of enrollments in the government insurance program for low-income people since pandemic-era protections expired.

This week’s panelists are Mary Agnes Carey of 蘑菇影院 Health News, Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call, Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Panelists

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Though the Change Healthcare hearing on Capitol Hill illuminated bipartisan agreement on the perils of vertical integration in health care, lawmakers did not agree on possible solutions. Addressing consolidation, however, could remedy issues in health care beyond cybersecurity.
• The 蘑菇影院 survey on the unwinding found that nearly half of those who lost coverage signed back up for Medicaid weeks or months later, a signal that those enrollees should never have been dropped in the first place. Even a temporary loss in health coverage can have serious, lingering consequences.
• Republicans in Arizona are grappling with the fallout from the state’s newly reinstated, Civil War-era abortion law 鈥� echoing recent problems for Alabama Republicans after a state Supreme Court ruling upended access to in vitro fertilization there. Softened stances from conservative hard-liners like Senate candidate Kari Lake point to the potential negative consequences for the party in a critical election year.
• And the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released new information about the current measles outbreak, revealing that many of those sickened are children, as well as adults who are unvaccinated or whose vaccination status is unknown.

Also this week, Julie Rovner, 蘑菇影院 Health News’ chief Washington correspondent, interviews Caroline Pearson of the Peterson Health Technology Institute.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Mary Agnes Carey: 蘑菇影院 Health News’ “When Rogue Brokers Switch People’s ACA Policies, Tax Surprises Can Follow,” by Julie Appleby.听

Jessie Hellmann: Tampa Bay Times’ “,” by Teghan Simonton.听

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Stat’s “,” by Nicholas Florko.听

Lauren Weber: The New York Times’ “,” by Christina Jewett.听

Also mentioned on this week’s podcast:

• 蘑菇影院 Health News’ “Nearly 1 in 4 Adults Dumped From Medicaid Are Now Uninsured, Survey Finds,” by Phil Galewitz.
• The New York Times’ “,” by Chris Cameron.

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Mary Agnes Carey: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Mary Agnes Carey of 蘑菇影院 Health News filling in this week for your usual host, Julie Rovner. I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 18, at 10 a.m. Eastern. As always, news happens fast and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We’re joined today via video conference by Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Lauren Weber: Hello, hello.

Carey: Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call.

Jessie Hellmann: Hey, there.

Carey: And Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.

Carey: Later in this episode we’ll have Julie’s interview with Caroline Pearson of the Peterson Health Technology Institute. That’s a new nonprofit designed to assess the costs and benefits of new digital health technologies. But first, this week’s news.

Congress jumped in into the Change Healthcare cyberattack story this week with the House Energy and Commerce Committee holding a hearing into the historic theft of medical data that shut down operations at hospitals and pharmacies.

Some of these medical providers are still experiencing revenue losses due to unpaid claims. Representatives of UnitedHealth Group, which owns Change Healthcare, were not present at this hearing, but they promised to testify at a future date. Jessie, you covered the hearing. Start us out. What happened?

Hellmann: There was a lot of frustration from members about how this attack happened and the circumstances that led to us being in this situation. There’s a lot of frustration just about the size of UnitedHealth Group. They’re a massive health care company, one of the biggest in the United States, and there were just a lot of complaints about the vertical integration that just made this cyberattack so much more widespread that there weren’t really many policy solutions that were talked about.

It was like an airing of grievances. So I think we’re still pretty early on in terms of Congress trying to figure out how to respond to these kinds of things and preventing them from happening again. And it already seems like there’s some disagreement from Democrats and Republicans about how to respond to this. Democrats like Sen. Ron Wyden are talking about how there’s really no mandatory cybersecurity requirements for hospitals and other health care sector industries to meet, and he thinks that should change.

And Republicans are talking about how they don’t think that there should be a top-down mandate where we’re requiring health care providers meet cybersecurity requirements. So at this point, it seems like there are some more debate that needs to happen on this, and it’s not very clear how Congress will respond.

Carey: Lauren, jump in.

Weber: Yeah. I just wanted to say, I mean, just to take a step back, we talk about these cyberattacks on hospitals or health care, they can have really serious consequences. There was a study I think that came out that said mortality risks rose by 21%, which is a wild stat when you think about the fact that a lot more hospitals have been held ransom in the last few years, a significantly larger number, to real outcome risks. And the other concern is you have patients’ personal data being leaked.

I just did a story with Dan Diamond and my co-worker Dan Keating about the over $2 billion in Medicare fraud over catheters. I mean, those numbers probably got leaked in some sort of hack or ransomware attack like you’re seeing here. And so on top of obviously the vertical integration of UnitedHealthcare, I think these conversations around the real threat of ransomware attacks really are quite something, and the fact that there are not a lot of solutions is concerning for health care as a whole.

Karlin-Smith: The thing that struck me about the vertical integration component of this and how it made the attack so much worse, is that there are other health policy issues that Congress has been looking at or other parts of the government have been concerned about in health care, where vertical integration is seen as a key problem. So a space I’ve covered a lot lately is the pharmacy benefit managers and some of their role in drug pricing, but I know there’s other concerns around the gobbling up of primary care, other just smaller medical practices and vertical integration.

So I think there’s an interesting hook, I guess, for policymakers and lawmakers to think about if they take on that topic. Do they solve actually multiple problems potentially in the health policy space, not just cybersecurity?

Carey: And might these thoughts be part of the Senate finance hearing? Jessie, you mentioned a moment ago that Ron Wyden, the chair of that committee, is having a hearing. Can you give us any window into that?

Hellmann: Yeah. He was speaking at the American Hospital Association conference this week and he said there was going to be a hearing. It sounds like it’s going to be with UnitedHealth Group CEO Andrew Witty. I don’t think there’s been a date set for that, but reports have indicated it’ll be this month.

And it’ll be the first time that he’s really been questioned publicly about this attack and how it happened and the impact of it. So, I don’t imagine they’ll go very easy on him, especially. 鈥� It just seems like lawmakers are getting more and more frustrated as we learn more about this or grappling with the long-term effects of it.

Carey: True, and it’s certainly a very, very expensive thing for UnitedHealth Group. The company on Tuesday reported an $872 million charge for “unfavorable cyberattack effects” in the first quarter. But UnitedHealth didn’t reveal how much or if it had paid ransom to the hackers. So maybe we’ll get more there. Let’s go ahead and move on to Medicaid, specifically Medicaid unwinding and what’s happening there.

This is the process where states are reassessing Medicaid eligibility for millions of Americans who enrolled during the pandemic and dropping those who don’t qualify or perhaps didn’t complete the renewal procedures. The full Medicaid unwinding process won’t be completed until later this year. Recently released data from my 蘑菇影院 colleagues who study the Medicaid program found that nearly a quarter of adults disenrolled from Medicaid in the past year say they are now insured.

The 蘑菇影院 survey details how tens of millions of Americans have struggled to retain coverage in the government insurance program for low-income people after the pandemic-era protections expired last spring. While 23% of those surveyed report being uninsured, an additional 28% found coverage through an employer, Medicare, the Affordable Care Act’s [Health] Insurance Marketplace, or health care for members of the military, the 蘑菇影院 survey found.

So, my question for all of you is were you surprised at these findings? We’ve all been keeping our eyes on the unwinding issue for months. It’s been a topic of discussion many times here on “What the Health?” What’s your take so far?

Weber: I can’t say based on what we all know that it’s surprising. I mean, I think what’s concerning and what we only will see as this continues to play out is what the effect of that loss of coverage is. I think we won’t know for some time because it’ll take research a while to catch up. I mean, we have the anecdotal reports, but I mean, people losing coverage even temporarily can be devastating in terms of their medical outcomes.

I want to point to some of the data from that survey I believe from 蘑菇影院 is the impact on children has been particularly unfortunate. Nearly 5 million children, I believe, have lost Medicaid coverage so far. I think 2 million of them are in three states, Texas, Georgia, and Florida, which have not expanded Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act. And that’s a lot of kids not having access to potentially health care they desperately need, and remains to be seen what the outcomes of that are.

Carey: People might think that the reenrollment certification process is fairly straightforward, right? What are some of the problems that Medicaid beneficiaries are facing as they try to prove that they’re eligible for coverage? Can we unpack that a little bit?

Karlin-Smith: Some of it it just seems like the states don’t actually have enough people and staff to help everybody in an efficient way, and that every state process is different. So that’s been a big barrier.

Weber: There’s also, I mean, the mailing issue is always an issue. This has always been a Medicaid problem. People send mail to old addresses, outdated addresses. Even The New York Times even spoke to someone who they had updated their address, but they still didn’t get their renewal packet at the right place and it impacted their child’s ability to see several specialists.

We all deal with logistical problems when it comes to mail. I know I certainly have missed some mail in the past. But when it comes to your actual health care, especially health care for your children, it’s pretty wild that we rely on this antiquated of a system and this amount of red tape for some of these people’s access.

Karlin-Smith: I was going to say there are reports even of the way the state’s software and processes were going. That they were triggering one child in a family to be kicked off and not the other child. So clearly, again, the systems the states are using to kick people off have their own problems that are improperly booting people who shouldn’t be booted.

Carey: Sure. Jess, did you have any sense of whether, and they don’t have to, but would lawmakers try to jump in as this unwinding unfolds to try to remedy some of these issues that are happening with state systems or on the federal government side? Or is that something you think they’re just going to let it play out and see what happens?

Hellmann: I think if they were going to jump in, they probably would’ve done it already. This process has been playing out for several months now, and it seems like the Biden administration has been pushing states to get a handle on the process and make sure people shouldn’t be losing coverage if they’re still eligible. But it seems like that’s going to continue happening. The survey said that nearly half of the people who lost coverage ended up signing up again weeks or months later, which indicates they probably shouldn’t have been kicked off in the first place.

I was reading stories about how people didn’t find out that they were kicked off until they tried to schedule a medical appointment or their providers told them, “Your coverage isn’t active anymore.” So it just shows that there’s this really big disconnect between people and their states sometimes. It can be hard to reach people.

Carey: Sure. Well, we’ll continue to watch this as I’m sure you all will. But right now I would like to move to a topic that was discussed on last week’s podcast. This is about the Arizona Supreme Court’s ruling that an abortion ban originally passed in 1864 鈥� that’s before the end of the Civil War and decades before Arizona even became a state 鈥� that that law could be enforced. And in some other states, including Florida, voters will likely have the chance in November to decide whether to include abortion rights in their state constitutions.

So to that point, how to respond to a planned ballot measure this fall that would enshrine abortion rights. And we have some news on this. On Thursday, Republican lawmakers in the Statehouse blocked an effort to repeal the ban in the state legislature, but then a handful of Republicans in the state Senate sided with Democrats and allowed them to introduce a bill to repeal it.

What does this split among Republican members of the Arizona Legislature mean for the overall GOP’s efforts, not only in this state but nationwide, to take some of the momentum from Democrats on the abortion issue?

Weber: I think what we’re seeing here is what we saw a little bit, obviously, in Alabama with the IVF fallout. You’re seeing Democrats capitalizing on the moment to some extent with their electorate and saying, “Look, Republicans are not on your side. Vote for us, et cetera. We’ll have this ballot measure. We’ll see what the turnout is.”

And as we’ve talked about on this podcast several times, I mean, I think it remains to be seen, especially in a presidential year in which we have two candidates who are historically somewhat unpopular it seems with their parties, how abortion ballot measures across the country could play out in terms of turnout for one party or another, when folks are apathetic about the election as a whole.

So I think there’s a lot of movement and a lot of scurrying in Arizona, which obviously would be an influential state in that presidential election to see how that could influence politics one way or another.

Carey: And they’ve got these additional pressures, right? You’ve got former President Trump, who’s the presumptive GOP nominee, saying that Arizona Republican lawmakers should “act immediately” to repeal this law. You’ve got GOP Senate candidate Kari Lake from Arizona also calling for the overturning of the 1864 law. And we do have voters in about a dozen states that could decide the fate of abortion rights in November with all of these constitutional amendments on the ballot in what is absolutely a pivotal election year.

And that’s including in a lot of battleground states that are key to deciding the presidential race and which party controls Congress. I also think it’s interesting to note, ever since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in June of 2022, every ballot measure that has sought to preserve or expand abortion access has been successful, while those that have sought to restrict abortion access have failed, even in states that skew conservative. Is the same thing going to happen this fall? Get out your crystal balls.

Weber: I mean, I think there’s a reason that [Sen.] Josh Hawley is out there not exactly thrilled about an abortion ballot in his state in his election year. I mean, I think if we talk about you see Kari Lake, you see Donald Trump, I think they see the writing on the wall. As we’ve discussed that there’s concerns that these abortion ballots, which have been popular, which have driven turnout, could result in negative downstream consequences for them getting elected.

So it still remains to be seen. It’s very early. But yes, I think there’s a reason you have Kari Lake, Donald Trump, and Josh Hawley all saying those things.

Karlin-Smith: No, I think it’s interesting. I’ve just been thinking about this is you could think about these politicians as being opportunistic and just changing their views because 鈥�

Carey: No way!

Karlin-Smith: 鈥� they see the tide going in their favor. But on the other hand, I guess maybe in some ways this is how a democracy is supposed to work, that people see how their citizens are feeling and represent them. You can get a little bit cynical watching this in Washington, seeing everybody shift their tune as they realize the popular opinion is not with them.

Carey: Sure. And I think another thing to watch as we go forward is there’ll be a lot of twists and turns in the wording of these amendments on ballots, some of which opponents may say is done intentionally to confuse people. I see people nodding their heads. Anybody want to jump in?

Hellmann: I think The New York Times story this week about the proposed ballot measure on abortion right[s] in Arizona really laid that out. They got access to this presentation that was done by Republican operatives framing these competing abortion ballot measures that they were thinking of [proposing], or putting out there, as being intentionally misleading to people. So that’s definitely part of the strategy that is not very surprising and that they’ve admitted privately.

Carey: Well, we’ll see how that plays out. That’s another fascinating angle that we’ll all be watching. So I’d like to shift gears just a little bit. I want to chat about a new ruling from the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that says abortion-related accommodations are included under the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act that was released earlier this week. What are these accommodations?

Karlin-Smith: These are essentially accommodations to ensure people can have unpaid leave for pregnancy-related issues without losing their job. And it’s particularly important for people that do not get covered by FMLA [Family and Medical Leave Act], which protects people who work for larger employers, which actually that was what shocked me about all of this, that there are some people that don’t get the FMLA protections.

Carey: Because they’re too small, right? It’s like 15 and under, you don’t hit that.

Karlin-Smith: Fifty, I think.

Carey: Fifty. Beg your pardon. If you’re a smaller employer, as an employee, you may not be eligible. That’s the takeaway.

Karlin-Smith: Correct. Yeah. There’s controversy over whether abortion should qualify under these protections, although of course, again, you have to remember, abortion care also essentially encompasses things like care for miscarriages and so forth. I think sometimes people create these arbitrary lines between abortion/miscarriage, and it’s all sort of one and the same. I think it becomes really hard to tease that out based on if you’re thinking about pregnancy and the complications that arise with that.

Weber: Just to chime in, I mean too just on the pregnancy protections, I mean, the reason rules like this were protected because back in March, EEOC [Equal Employment Opportunity Commission], they settled an over-$200,000 lawsuit with Walgreens, which essentially did not allow a pregnant woman to go seek emergency medical care when she started spotting and later that day she miscarried. I mean, these are situations that seem hard to believe, but happen every day here in the U.S. So that kind of protection would theoretically, hopefully protect someone in that kind of situation.

Carey: Right, and we should talk to your point, Lauren. I hit on the abortion perspective there with the first question, but this is also talking about things like letting people have water, letting them have a chair, letting them sit down. These are deemed as reasonable accommodations, and some people may still oppose them on religious grounds if it deals with care for an abortion, but we will leave that there and turn to another topic we have talked a lot about: measles.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, also known as the CDC, eight more measles cases have been reported, bringing that total to 121 so far this year. Forty-seven percent of those cases are in children ages 5 and younger. And for 82% of individuals who’ve been diagnosed with measles, their vaccination status is either unvaccinated or unknown. And the cases noted this week were in California, Illinois, and Ohio.

Lauren, I know you’ve written a lot about public health officials and their tracking of these kind of things. How are they trying to contain this outbreak?

Weber: Well, it depends on what state you’re in for the answer to that, MAC.

Carey: There you go.

Weber: I would say that in general, what we’re seeing here with this explosion of measles is really the ramifications of the misinformation and anti-vaccine rhetoric whipped up by covid coming to bear. We’ve had the highest rate, according to CDC data from I think it was the 2022-2023 school year, of parents requesting exemptions for their children. In kindergarten, we’re seeing more measles cases, which again is a vaccine-preventable disease.

Most public health officials, the vast majority, are advocating for vaccination, public awareness, bringing up those vaccination numbers, making sure we track down cases. But then you see others in Florida, most notably the surgeon general in the third-most-populous state, not following public health guidance when it comes to measles.

And the concern is, as we move forward, what will happen as you have more measles cases potentially show up in a Florida or in another very red state where a public health official may choose to take a different tack? We’ll see how that continues to play out this year.

Carey: I know, Lauren, you’ve written extensively about this, and others feel free to jump in, but I mean, you’re talking about public health departments that have really been hit: funding cuts, staff reductions. And that’s going to impact their ability to track and contain measles and other highly contagious diseases.

Weber: I mean, I think also we have to talk about the fact that public health as a whole has been incredibly politicized. Anytime you say the word “public health” it usually has a somewhat negative reaction in a post-covid world. I mean, we live with covid, but after the pandemic began. And you are seeing even though health departments did get a boost of funds from covid money and some of the money that passed through the CDC, those funds are going to drop off soon. So you’re even going to see a reduction in workforce from the growth they had to combat those cuts they’d faced for years.

You’re going to have, again, that boom-bust cycle when it comes to public health. And when you have that boom-bust cycle, that means that you don’t have enough public health workers to properly track a measles outbreak or monitor any other water outbreak or other public health issue that we all just live our lives and don’t think about every day. And so it is concerning when you see what is a vaccine-preventable disease and, as many experts have told me, not something we should be seeing in 2024 in America coming up this frequently in children.

And again, let’s just point out that measles can have deadly effects. It can also have very serious health effects. It is not a fun thing for any child or any person to endure. And so a lot of public health experts are just really, frankly, discouraged that message has been lost in some corners of this country.

Carey: All right. Well, that’s the news for this week. Now we’re going to play Julie’s interview with Caroline Pearson and then we’ll come back for our extra credits.

Julie Rovner: I am pleased to welcome to the podcast Caroline Pearson, executive director of the Peterson Health Technology Institute. If that organization sounds familiar, it’s because we talked about the Institute’s first public project a couple of weeks ago. Caroline, thanks for joining us.

Caroline Pearson: I’m so excited to be here, Julie. Thanks so much.

Rovner: So let’s start with what the Peterson Health Technology Institute is and what it does.

Pearson: Wonderful. Well, we are an independent, nonprofit evaluator of digital health tools. So we are trying to figure out what works and what doesn’t in the space of health technology.

Rovner: And there is an awful lot of that to choose from, right?

Pearson: There is indeed, and it’s really hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. And so we hope to be helpful.

Rovner: So for those who don’t remember or weren’t listening a couple of weeks ago, remind us what your first assessment was about and what you found.

Pearson: We conducted an assessment of digital diabetes tools to support adults with Type 2 diabetes, and they rely on noncontinuous glucometers. Those are the ones that you prick your finger with. And then they support the patients with diabetes by encouraging them to take their blood glucose on a regular basis, to make a variety of behavior and lifestyle changes, and really to help with self-management between their clinician visits.

Rovner: All of which sounds cool. What did you find?

Pearson: Well, diabetes is obviously a huge and growing issue in this country, and it really does rely on patients to manage so much on their own. And so it makes sense that these tools were created to be helpful to patients. And if we can help them manage better, in theory, we can help them be healthier. But unfortunately, while many of these tools have been around 10, some of them 15 years at this point, we found very little evidence that they’re having meaningful clinical benefits for patients across the board.

And so we found that really patients weren’t seeing significant improvements in their hemoglobin A1C that were sufficient to change their prognosis or their health spending 鈥� and unfortunately, were paying a lot of money both through health plans and through physicians for these digital solutions. And so on net, they’re increasing costs and not delivering a lot of health benefits.

Rovner: And I keep saying this, that every time somebody looks at something that didn’t work, that’s a success, not a failure, right?

Pearson: Well, I’m so excited that we’re just having a serious conversation about evidence. We’ve been excited about health technology. Obviously covid was a huge boom. But as we’re innovating, we need to be measuring and taking a step back and making sure that the tools that we’re using are delivering the value that we want. And if they’re not, we keep innovating. We push forward. But it’s important to bring that real evidence-based framework to this industry.

Rovner: So what are you doing next and how do you decide which specific technology to assess? As you mentioned, there’s an awful lot out there.

Pearson: Well, there’s many to choose from. Our next one is going to be looking at virtual solutions to help with musculoskeletal problems. So these are really, like, virtual physical therapy apps that people can do at home on their own and much more convenient and can really help with access. And then after that, we’ve got hypertension coming up, and mental health for anxiety and depression before the end of the year.

And I think the theme that you’ll see across all four of those is these are really big clinical areas, things that affect a lot of patients and create a lot of health care spending. And places where we’ve seen really a lot of technology investment, and we think there’s some opportunity for evaluation of that investment.

Rovner: So technology assessment has a more controversial history than I think many people realize. I am old enough to remember the congressional Office of Technology Assessment, which was summarily canceled when Republicans took over Congress after the 1994 elections. Why is this subject so touchy and how are you going to avoid falling into the trap of being perceived as unbalanced?

Pearson: Well, first and foremost, we are, I think, the only entity that we know of that really doesn’t have a stake in the game. We’re a philanthropy and we simply want to make health care more effective and more efficient. So we really have the ability to be truly independent, whereas many of the entities in this space are pay-to-play or have some investment interest. I don’t know why it’s been so hard. I really can’t explain. Many people remind me about the OTA and that it did exist once.

Rovner: It was very popular when it existed. They did a lot of good work.

Pearson: It did. It did. Well, I guess no one even needs to vote for my institute. So we’re going to keep doing this good work because we think it’s important and we hope to really drive impact both for patients and those who are purchasing these technologies, but also for folks who are developing these technologies and investing in them. I think everyone wants to be able to figure out what’s really working and put their investment and their energy behind that.

Rovner: Well, absolutely. We will be watching. Caroline Pearson, thank you so much for joining us.

Pearson: Thank you, Julie. Great to be here.

Carey: All right, we’re back. And it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story that we read this week and think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Lauren, why don’t you start us off with your extra credit?

Weber: I’ll fangirl another former 蘑菇影院 Health News colleague, Christina Jewett, who’s at The New York Times, who basically taught me everything I know. So shoutout on this podcast.

Carey: She’s awesome. I can verify.

Weber: She wrote, as always, a great dive called “.” It basically gets into how this company, WuXi, I believe is how you say it, but I could be wrong, is behind pretty much, I believe it was a 1 in 4, one-fourth of the drugs used in the U.S. OK, that’s a lot of the drugs used in the U.S., but it is under congressional scrutiny as potentially having too deep of interest from China.

And so there are talks of limiting its access to U.S. companies and limiting its contracts and so on, which could be very devastating to many of the drugs it’s involved with, which include those that treat cystic fibrosis, leukemia, a wide variety of things. Again, if you cover a quarter of the drugs in the U.S., you’re covering a lot of things that are very important. And what Christina did so deftly is there’s all been this talk about this company, it’s all been in the ether, but she went and found out actually what kind of drugs that would impact if there was some sort of ban. And it’s definitely something to be watching when we think about biotech interests abroad and just in general access to the U.S.’s drug supply and our access as patients to its availability.

Carey: Jessie, can you share your extra credit, please?

Hellmann: My story is from the Tampa Bay Times. It’s called “.” It focuses on people who receive the home- and community-based services. Some people in Florida have been finding that they were disenrolled during this redetermination process, and a lot of these people are people who would probably never lose eligibility if not for procedural reasons.

There are people that need a lot of intense care in their homes and they rely on this program for that care. And advocates in Florida have been sending up red flags about what’s going on there. And the state has said in their defense that they’ve reached out to these families and didn’t get any paperwork back.

But I think it’s important to note that these are families and these are individuals who have a lot going on and they’re caring for their loved ones. And it might be easier for them to fall through the cracks, and there are really serious consequences to that.

Carey: Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I took a look at a Stat story by Nick Florko, “.” And my favorite thing about this story is it focuses on a bill with a title called Food Traceability Enhancement Act, which would make you think, I think, for many people, that the idea is to, again, increase food safety.

And actually it appears to be an effort by food, grocery store lobbyists and so forth to gut FDA safety rules that are set to go into effect in 2026 that would help better control, contain, prevent food outbreaks. So it’s raising alarm, particularly by one of the former FDA heads of the food program, who basically worries it’s going to, again, set back big efforts to better protect all of us who consume food.

Carey: Good reminder. You always got to watch those bill titles. The details may not reflect the title. My extra credit this week is from my 蘑菇影院 Health News colleague Julie Appleby. The headline is “When Rogue Brokers Switch People’s ACA Policies, Tax Surprises Can Follow.” Julie broke that story about ACA enrollees being switched into plans that they didn’t select. That’s a tactic that earned commissions for some dishonest insurance agents, but it’s caused headaches for people who are now on the hook to pay more in taxes for health coverage they didn’t even know that they had.

So that’s our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review. That helps others find us too. Special thanks as always to our technical guru, Francis Ying, and our editor, Emmarie Huetteman. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can find me on X . Lauren, where are you these days?

Weber: Still only can find me on X. I’m , the HP is for health policy

Carey: Jessie.

Hellmann: Also still on X .

Carey: And Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m at X on and the trying to get more into Blue Sky at .

Carey: Julie will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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The Arizona Supreme Court shook up the national abortion debate this week, ruling that a ban originally passed in 1864 鈥� before the end of the Civil War and decades before Arizona became a state 鈥� could be enforced. As in some other states, including Florida, voters will likely have the chance to decide whether to enshrine abortion rights in the state constitution in November.

The Arizona ruling came just one day after former President Donald Trump declared that abortion should remain a state issue, although he then criticized the ruling as having gone “too far.”

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of 蘑菇影院 Health News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post, and Rachel Cohrs Zhang of Stat.

Panelists

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Former President Donald Trump’s remarks this week reflect only the latest public shift in his views on abortion access. During an appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press” in 1999, he described himself as “very pro-choice,” but by the 2016 presidential campaign, he had committed to nominating conservative Supreme Court justices likely to overturn the constitutional right to an abortion. Trump later blamed Republican losses in the 2022 elections on the overturning of that right.
• Arizona officials, as well as doctors and patients, are untangling the ramifications of a state Supreme Court ruling this week allowing the enforcement of a near-total abortion ban dating to the Civil War. Yet any ban 鈥� even one that doesn’t last long 鈥� can have lasting effects. Abortion clinics may not survive such restrictions, and doctors and residents may factor them into their decisions about where to practice medicine.
• Also in abortion news, an appeals court panel in Indiana unanimously ruled that the state cannot enforce its abortion ban against a group of non-Christians who sued, siding with mostly Jewish plaintiffs who charged that the ban violates their religious freedom rights.
• A discouraging new study finds that paying off an individual’s medical debt once it has reached collections doesn’t offer them much financial 鈥� or mental health 鈥� benefit. One factor could be that the failure to pay medical debt is only a symptom of larger financial difficulties.

Also this week, Rovner interviews 蘑菇影院 Health News’ Molly Castle Work, who reported and wrote the latest 蘑菇影院 Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” feature about an air-ambulance ride for an infant with RSV that his insurer deemed not to be medically necessary. If you have an outrageous or baffling medical bill you’d like to send us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: Stat’s “,” by Sarah Owermohle.

Rachel Cohrs Zhang: 蘑菇影院 Health News’ “Ten Doctors on FDA Panel Reviewing Abbott Heart Device Had Financial Ties With Company,” by David Hilzenrath and Holly K. Hacker.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Texas Tribune’s “,” by Eleanor Klibanoff.

Rachel Roubein: The Washington Post’s “,” by Sasha Chavkin, Caitlin Gilbert, Anjali Tsui, and Anahad O’Connor.

Also mentioned on this week’s podcast:

• Live Action’s “” video.
• The New York Times’ “,” by Chris Hamby.
• The Nation Bureau of Economic Research’s “,” by Raymond Kluender, Neale Mahoney, Francis Wong, and Wesley Yin.
• USA Today’s “,” by Cecilia Garzella.

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for 蘑菇影院 Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 11, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go.

We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs Zhang of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs Zhang: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And we welcome back from her leave Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

Rachel Roubein: Hi, happy to be here.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with my 蘑菇影院 Health News colleague Molly Work about the latest 蘑菇影院 Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month,” about yet another very expensive air-ambulance ride that an insurer deemed “unnecessary.” As you will hear, that is hardly the case.

But first, this week’s news, and there is lots of it. We start again this week with abortion because, again, that’s where the biggest news is. I want to do this chronologically because there were a lot of things that happened and they all built on each piece before them. So on Monday, former President [Donald] Trump, as promised, issued his long-awaited statement on abortion, a four-minute video posted on his platform Truth Social, in which he took credit for appointing the justices who overturned Roe v. Wade, but then kind of declared the job done because abortion is now up to the individual states. And while he didn’t say so directly, that strongly suggested he would not be supporting efforts by anti-abortion groups to try to pass a federal 15-week ban, should Republicans retake the presidency and both houses of Congress. That alone was a big step away from some of his strongest anti-abortion supporters like the SBA List [Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America], which helped got him elected in 2016, right, Alice? I see you nodding.

Ollstein: Yes. He kind of left himself some wiggle room. He made a statement that, at first, people could sort of read into it what they wanted. And so you had several anti-abortion groups going, “Well, he didn’t advocate for a national ban, but he also didn’t rule it out.” But then, as I’m sure we’ll get to, he was asked follow-up questions and he kind of did rule it out. He kind of did say, “No, I wouldn’t sign a national ban if it were presented to me.” And so the little crumbs of hope anti-abortion groups were picking up on may or may not be there. But it was both notable for what he did say and what he didn’t say. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about what he would do in office, both in terms of legislation, which is really a remote possibility that no one thinks is real, but he didn’t say anything.

Rovner: It would need 60 votes in the Senate.

Ollstein: Exactly.

Rovner: Legislation.

Ollstein: Exactly. And no one really on the right or left thinks that is going to happen, but he didn’t say anything about what he would do with executive powers, which, as we’ve discussed, could go a long, long way towards banning abortion nationwide.

Rovner: One of the things that sort of fascinates me, I’ve been covering abortion for a long time, longer than some of you have been alive, and I have seen lots of politicians switch sides on this. I mean, Joe Biden started out as very anti-abortion, now very in favor of abortion rights. So I’ve seen politicians go both ways, but the general rule has always been you get to switch once. You get to either go from being pro-life to pro-choice or being pro-choice to pro-life. You don’t get to go back and forth and yet that seems to be very much what Trump has done. He seems to have taken every conceivable position there is on this extraordinarily binary issue and gotten away with it.

Ollstein: One last thing I wanted to flag in the statement was that he kind of said the quiet part out loud and that he directly said that this is about winning elections. So he’s saying, “This is what we need to say in order to win,” which leaves open what he really believes or what he really would do.

Roubein: Yeah, I mean, going back to Trump’s shifting view on abortion, because that’s really important and that’s something that the anti-abortion movement is sort of looking towards. I mean, in 1999 in an interview in “Meet the Press,” he called himself “very pro-choice,” and then we kind of saw by 2016, he had committed to naming justices who had anti-abortion views. And as Alice mentioned then, after the midterms in 2022, he blamed Republican losses on that.

Rovner: Yeah, I assume that makes it hard for people who try to follow him. I know [Sen.] Lindsey Graham came out, Lindsey Graham, who’s been sort of the major backer of the 15-week abortion ban in Congress for some time now, and suddenly Lindsey Graham, who has been nothing but loyal to Trump, finds himself on the other side of a big, important issue. I mean, Trump seems to get away with it. The question is, are his followers going to get away with having different positions on this?

Cohrs Zhang: Oh, I also just wanted to say that I think it’ll be interesting to see who Trump chooses as his running mate on this because obviously his opinion and his position is very important, but I think we saw kind of last time around with him leaning on Mike Pence a little bit for credibility with the anti-abortion movement. So I think it’ll be interesting to see whether he chooses someone again who can mend some of these relationships or whether he’s just going to carry on and make those decisions himself and lean less on his VP.

Rovner: Well, let’s move on to Tuesday because on Tuesday the Trump abortion doctrine got a pretty severe test from the Arizona Supreme Court, which ruled that an almost absolute abortion ban that was passed in 1864, before Arizona was a state, before the end of the Civil War, can be enforced. Alice, what’s this law and when might it take effect?

Ollstein: So the Supreme Court kicked some of those issues back down to the lower court and so it’s still being worked out. Currently, abortion is banned after 15 weeks of pregnancy. The total ban could go into effect in a little over a month, but it’s really uncertain. And so you’re seeing a lot of the same fear and confusion that we saw in the immediate aftermath of Dobbs [v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization], where providers and patients don’t know what’s legal and whether they can provide or receive care and are, in some instances, over-complying and holding off on doing things that are still legal.

And so just a great example of how Trump and these national political figures, they can take whatever position they want, but that often gets overtaken by events. And so you saw Trump come out and say, “States should decide.” This is arguably an instance of states deciding, although the Supreme Court upholding a law from when no one was currently alive, was part of that, the law was implemented when women couldn’t vote, when Arizona wasn’t even a state yet. So whether this is an example of “will of the people,” that can be debated. But this is an example of “leave it to states.” And then Trump was asked about the Arizona decision, whether it went too far, and he said “Yes, it did go too far.” So it’s like should states be allowed to decide or not?

Rovner: It’s like, “Leave it to states unless they go too far.”

Roubein: And who decides what too far is, because a lot of anti-abortion groups were very complimentary of the Arizona ruling and said it was the right thing to do. So depends who you ask.

Rovner: So this obviously scrambles politics beyond just the presidential race, although I think it’s pretty clear to say that it puts Arizona, which had been teetering as being sort of purple state-ish, right back in play, but it’s going to affect things down the ballot and in other states, right?

Ollstein: I mean just looking at Arizona, I mean abortion rights and Democrats have really been pushing ballot measures here, and, I think as Julie was alluding to, there’s a ballot measure effort in Arizona, and I believe the organizers have said that they have enough signatures to qualify, then there’s steps to actually qualifying. So that’s going to really put a spotlight on Arizona. But, we’ve seen ballot measures in other states, Florida. Democrats really want Florida to be in play now that there’s been a Florida state Supreme Court ruling and there’s a ballot measure there. The threshold’s higher, it’s 60%, but all around the country it’s going to be putting increasing emphasis on this ballot measure effort.

Rovner: So the Republicans now really have no place to hide. I saw there was a Senate candidate in Wisconsin who had been very completely anti-abortion, now seems to be a lot less anti-abortion. I mean Republicans have spent a lot of time putting Democrats on the spot about not wanting to be specific on their abortion position, and that’s what leads to the, “You support abortion up until the ninth month,” which isn’t a thing. But now I feel like it’s a chance for Democrats to turn this on Republicans saying, “Now you have to say exactly what your position is rather than just you are 鈥榓nti-abortion’ or 鈥�100% pro-life,’ which for many, many elections was plenty and all the candidates needed to say.

Cohrs Zhang: Just as we talk about all of these different, how this is playing out, certainly I think the instance you brought up was an example of a position on the larger issue of what a candidate is going to support generally, but I think there are these kind of tangential local issues too that candidates are going to have to take positions on. I think if we look back, like IVF, that’s something that candidates have never really had to weigh in on, and I think it is going to become local in a new way, which just seeing all these offshoot rulings and court decisions. And I think that it was an excellent catch, and, certainly, it’ll be interesting to see how candidates move across the spectrum as we see some more and more extreme local cases coming up even beyond the national standard.

Rovner: And as Alice points out, this is more than just political. This affects health care on the ground. Doctors either not wanting to train in states that have strict bans or doctors in some cases picking up and leaving states, not wanting to be threatened with jail or loss of license. So that affects what other kinds of women’s health care is available. Alice, you wanted to add something?

Ollstein: Yeah, I’ve been seeing a lot of people saying, both with the Florida ruling and with the Arizona ruling, so in both of these instances, a very sweeping abortion ban is expected to go into effect, but then there’s going to be a ballot referendum in the fall where voters will have the opportunity to get rid of those bans. And so you’re seeing a lot of people saying, “OK, well this is only temporary. Voters will be so outraged over this that they’ll vote to support these ballot measures to overturn it.” But I think it’s important to remember that a lot of the impacts will linger for a long time if these clinics can’t hang on even a few months under a near-total ban and shut their doors. You can’t just flip a switch and turn that back on. It’s incredibly hard to open a new abortion clinic.

Rovner: Or even to reopen one that you’ve closed down “temporarily.”

Ollstein: Exactly. And like you said, medical students and residents and doctors are making decisions about where to live and where to practice that could have impacts that last for years and years. And so people saying, “Oh, well, it’s not that important if these bans go into effect now because in November voters will have their say.” Even a few months can have a very long effect in a state.

Rovner: Yeah. I just want to continue to reiterate this is about more than politics. This is actually about health care on the ground.

Well, in other abortion news, a three-judge panel of the Indiana Court of Appeals ruled last week that the state cannot enforce its abortion ban against a group of plaintiffs who are non-Christians and charge that the ban violates their freedom of religion because some religions, notably Judaism but others too, include tenets that prioritize the life and health of the pregnant woman over that of the fetus. This is obviously not the last word on this case. It could still go to the Indiana Supreme Court or even the U.S. Supreme Court, but it does seem significant. I think it’s the first decision we’ve seen on one of these cases, and it was unanimous. And interestingly, it turns a lot of the recent decisions protecting religious freedom for Christians right back on those who would ban abortion. Alice, there are more of these 鈥� awaiting hearing, right?

Ollstein: Yes. There’s ones going on really around the country that are testing these legal theories, and part of it is that state-level religious freedom laws are often more expansive and protective than federal religious freedom laws. And so they’re leaning on that. And yeah, it’s a really fascinating test case of, were these religious freedom laws intended to only protect one particular religion that has hegemonic power in the United States right now or were they designed to protect every one of every religion? And I think Judeo-Christian values is a term that’s thrown out a lot, and this really shows that there are very different beliefs when it comes to pregnancy and abortion and which life to prioritize between the mother and the child. And when it even counts as an abortion, when it even counts as life beginning, that is a lot more muddled.

And look, in this case it was led by Jewish plaintiffs challenging, but I’ve been tracking cases that draw from many different religions, and these protections even apply to avowed atheists in some instances. And so I think this is definitely something to keep an eye on. In addition to Indiana, the other case I’ve been following most closely is in Missouri, so it’ll be really fascinating to see what happens.

Rovner: There was one in Kentucky, too. Did anything ever happen with that one? I think that was the first one we talked about.

Ollstein: They’re still waiting.

Rovner: Like two years ago.

Ollstein: Yeah. The wheels of justice turn slowly.

Rovner: Indeed, they do. Well, finally, Tennessee is on the verge of enacting a bill that would require students to be shown a three-minute video on fetal development and strongly recommends one made by the anti-abortion group Live Action. Not surprisingly, medical experts say the video is inaccurate and manipulative. I will so you can watch it and judge for yourself. What jumped out to me in this story is that one Tennessee lawmaker, himself a physician, said, and I quote, “Whether all of the exact details are correct, I don’t think that is important.” Is that where we have come with this debate these days, that facts are no longer important?

Cohrs Zhang: I mean, I thought it was interesting that there was an amendment rejected that would’ve allowed parents to opt out of it. And I just feel like there’s so many permission slips in schools these days for any book or movie that something like this would be mandated is just kind of like an interesting twist on that. So again, we’ll be interested to see if it actually takes effect, but 鈥�

Rovner: I mean, it’s a pretty benign video. It’s basically purporting to show fetal development from the moment of fertilization up to birth. The big complaint about it is it’s misleading on the timing because it’s counting from a different place than doctors count from. It’s counting from the moment of fertilization. Doctors generally count pregnancy from the last missed period because it’s hard to tell. You don’t know when the moment of fertilization was. But when we talk about first trimester or however many weeks, medically you’re talking about weeks since last missed period. So this makes everything look like it happened earlier than it actually does in common parlance. Have I explained that right, Alice?

Ollstein: Yes. And we are seeing efforts on this front both to make these educational mandates for students, but we’re also seeing them mandated for doctors’ education in some states as well. Part of this is to address what everyone on all sides acknowledges is a problem, which is that doctors don’t understand when the exemptions to these abortion bans apply in terms of life and health of the parent coming into play. Oftentimes these bans are written with nonmedical language talking about serious threats. What’s serious? Talking about harm to a major bodily function. What’s major? So, you are seeing doctors holding off from providing abortions even in cases that they think should be exempt, these emergency situations, and so anti-abortion groups are pushing these bills mandating certain curricula for doctors to try to address this confusion. The medical groups I’ve spoken to don’t think this is a solution, but it’s interesting as an attempt.

Rovner: In some states, it has to be an affirmative defense. So as you, a doctor, consider an emergency, you perform the abortion and then instead of not getting charged, you get charged and you have to go hire a lawyer and go to court and say, “I decided that this was an emergency.” And that’s not something that’s very attractive to doctors either. And Rachel, you wanted to add 鈥�

Roubein: Oh yeah, I was just going to say I think one of the things that stuck out to me about this particular video, one of my colleagues, Dan Rosen, so I [inaudible 00:16: 52] in February, and he said that this is Live Action, which is the group that came under the spotlight in 2011 for releasing undercover videos seeking to discredit Planned Parenthood, but Live Action had been playing the to legislative audiences, including at an influential conservative group, American Legislative Exchange Council. So just kind of looking at who’s kind of seeking to get this video into classrooms.

Rovner: All right, well now it is time for our weekly dive into why health care costs so darn much. We begin with a fascinating and infuriating investigation from The New York Times about another one of those third-party contractors most of us had never heard of, kind of like Change Healthcare before it got hacked. This one is called MultiPlan, and its job is to recommend how much insurers and/or employers, in self-insured plans, should pay providers. Except it turns out that MultiPlan has an incentive to pay providers less than they charge. It pockets part of the “savings.” And in most of the cases, these out-of-network charges are not covered by the surprise-billing law. I think because patients know they are going out-of-network, that part is not entirely clear to me. And of course, often patients have no other available providers, so they have no choice but to go out-of-network.

. We’ve talked about that a lot. But in this case, it seems that a lot of these recommendations are to underpay outrageously. The firm told one therapist that her fair payment should be half of what Medicaid pays. Medicaid, traditionally the lowest payer of everyone. I feel like this story’s going to have legs, as they say. Apparently, the American Hospital Association has already asked the U.S. Department of Labor to investigate MultiPlan. Why do I feel like we’re all pawns in this huge competition between health care providers and insurers about who can pay who less or more and pocket the differences?

Cohrs Zhang: Yeah, I think we first heard about MultiPlan, kind of in the conversation around surprise billing, because that was just a different category of these out-of-network bills where patients were getting stuck in the middle. And I think over time we’ve seen more stories come out about loopholes in those protections. And this is another example where MultiPlan is 鈥� they have to fix their business model. And the arbitration process for these surprise bills is so backed up, in these certain cases, which are more emergency care, I think, and if patients don’t necessarily have control or knowledge of their provider being out-of-network.

But certainly, people, if you’re looking for a certain specialist or want to go to a certain place to have a procedure done, then you may just elect an out-of-network provider. And I think the part I found really interesting about this reporting, that I think we’ve seen reflected in larger trends on business reporting, is really understanding these business models better and the incentives. And I love the graphics, I think, where you’re showing that if MultiPlan can lowball these providers and manage to squeeze a little bit more of a discount for payers, then they’re taking a cut of that discount, and patients can be left on the hook for these too.

So I think, as with anything, these surprise-billing protections are going to be an iterative process. And certainly I think there’s more to be done in so many different individual cases to protect patients from some of these games that providers and insurers are engaged in and the firms that kind of specialize in brokering these negotiations.

Rovner: It feels very whack-a-mole, every time they sort of put a band-aid on one problem, another one pops up, that it’s just sort of this is what happens when a fifth of your economy goes to health care is that everybody says, “Oh, I can make money doing X.” And then, there’s an awful lot of people making money doing X, which is not necessarily having anything to do with providing or receiving medical care.

Cohrs Zhang: Absolutely. And correct me if I’m wrong, I think MultiPlan, it may be publicly traded as well. So if you look at some of these incentives here to kind of meet those quarterly targets and how that aligns with patients, I think that’s also just something we keep in mind.

Rovner: And there was private equity involved on both sides, too, which I didn’t even want to try to explain. You should really read the story, which is really very complicated and very well explained. Because this is how it works: They make it complicated so you can’t figure out what’s going on.

Well, meanwhile, in a sad payment story of the week, a new study has found that doesn’t actually fix their financial problems. According to a National Bureau of Economic Research working paper, paying off debts that have already gone to collection did not improve the financial status of the people who owed the money, nor their mental health, nor did it make it more likely that they would be able to pay future medical bills. One thing it did do was help their credit ratings. The researchers said that they hope maybe paying off debt before it reaches the collection status might be more helpful, but that would also be more expensive. What makes it easy to pay off medical debt after it’s gone to collections is they sell it for pennies on the dollar. And of course, the U.S. is already moving towards taking medical debt off of people’s credit report. So obviously we’re talking about patients getting stuck with these huge bills and they end up with this medical debt and now we can’t seem to figure out how to fix the medical debt problem either.

Cohrs Zhang: When I first saw the study, obviously I trust that Sarah Kliff edited her studies, but I scrolled right down to the conflict-of-interest section to see who funded this. And yeah, it was a very depressing study. But I think it’s important to keep in mind that a failure to pay medical debt is a symptom of larger economic problems. Certainly there may be cases where medical debt is the only outstanding debt somebody has or is a shocking surprise or is a lien on their home, something like that that might have just these massive consequences.

But I think one of the points that was brought up in the story was that when you have medical debt, sure, you have collections calls, you have bad impact on your credit, but you’re not getting evicted from your home. And we’ve heard about cases where providers have held outstanding balances against patients, but I don’t think that’s a general practice. You’re supposed to be seen if you go in for medical care. So I think just like the day-to-day challenges of poverty, of debt, are so overwhelming that it is a little discouraging to hear that these individual payments may not have changed someone’s life. But I think there may be anecdotal cases that would be different from that larger trend, but it was not an encouraging study.

Rovner: No. And speaking of conflict of interest, there was the opposite of conflict of interest. It was conducted in part by the group RIP Medical Debt, which was created to help pay off people’s medical debt. And they did say, obviously there are cases in this does make huge differences in individual people’s lives. It was just that, overall, apparently the model by which they are paying off people’s debt is not helping them as much as I guess they had hoped to. So they have to look on to other things.

Moving on to this week in , or lack thereof, it seems that another cyberattack group is trying to get Change Healthcare to pay ransom. This is after the company reportedly paid $22 million. So it seems that after paying, the company didn’t get all of its stolen records back. Meanwhile, it seems that even though we’re not hearing as much about this as we were, there are still lots of providers that aren’t getting paid. I mean, Rachel, this thing as we predicted, has a really long tail.

Roubein: Absolutely does. Yeah, I think we’re seeing these multiple ransomware groups trying to extort money out of UnitedHealthcare. I mean, they have deep pockets. It’s such a mess. I think, who’s to say what’s true about what data they have as well. So it’s kind of hard to report on these kind of things. And I think only UnitedHealthcare has the answers to those questions. But I think we are going to see some more congressional oversight on this issue. I know providers, hospitals, and physician groups were absolutely using these arguments on Capitol Hill during the appropriations negotiations. They’re saying, “We’re in such financial distress.” Going to their lawmakers talking about how it wouldn’t be a good idea to cut provider payments or implement site-neutral payments for hospitals, all these long-term things that lawmakers have been thinking about. There were other political problems, too, but I think it’s definitely seeped into Washington how difficult this has been, how cumbersome some of the workarounds are for providers, large and small, I think who are trying to work around this fiasco.

Rovner: Yeah, I read one story, I mean it really does feel like a spy movie that they’re assuming that maybe the company that got the ransom that was supposed to split it with the company that actually did the hacking didn’t and made off with the money. And now the company that actually did the hacking is trying to get its own ransom and oh my goodness. I mean, again, this is what happens when a fifth of the economy goes through the health care system. But I mean, I want to keep on this story because this story really does keep on impacting the back-room goings-on, which keep the health care system functioning in some ways.

And while we are on the subject of health care data breaches, USA Today has now a for you to find out if you’re one of the 144 million Americans whose medical information was stolen or exposed in the last year. Yay? I think? I suppose this is a necessary evil. It’s hard for me to imagine 10 years ago. It’s like, “Wow, you can take some time and find out if your medical information’s been exposed.”

Roubein: It’s better than not knowing because you can change your passwords, you can do some credit monitoring, you could protect your information in some ways. But it’s not the same as better protections for the breaches happening in the first place.

Rovner: I know Congress is talking about a privacy bill, but apparently it is in truly embryonic stages at this point because I don’t think Congress really knows what to do about this either. They just know that they probably should do something.

All right, that is the news for this week. Now we will play my bill of the month interview with Molly [Castle] Work. Then we will come back and do our extra credits.

I am pleased to welcome to the podcast my colleague Molly Work, who reported and wrote the latest 蘑菇影院 Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” installment. Molly, thanks for joining us.

Molly Castle Work: Thanks so much, Julie.

Rovner: So this month’s bill, like last month’s bill, is for an air-ambulance ride, a bill that should have been prevented by the federal No Surprises Act. But we’ll get to that in a minute. First, who is our patient this month?

Work: So our patient is Amari Vaca. He was a 3-month-old baby at the time from Salinas, California.

Rovner: And what happened to him?

Work: When Amari was a 3-month-old baby, he had issues with his breathing. His mother took him to a local ER and pretty quickly his team of doctors decided that he needed more specialized care at a larger hospital in San Francisco. So they organized an emergency transport.

Rovner: Via helicopter, yes?

Work: It was actually by air ambulance. So like a small airplane.

Rovner: Ah. OK. And before we get too far, he’s OK now, right?

Work: Yes, he is OK. Unfortunately, he was transported to the hospital. He was there for three weeks. They diagnosed him with RSV, but he’s fortunately doing well, now.

Rovner: Well, and then as we say, the bill came. And how much was it?

Work: It was $97,599.

Rovner: Of which the insurance paid how much?

Work: Zero.

Rovner: Now, as I mentioned at the top, the federal surprise-billing law should have prevented the patient from getting a big bill like this, except it didn’t in this case. So why not?

Work: Yeah, so this was really interesting. Cigna, which was Amari’s health plan at the time, decided that the care was not medically necessary. Their argument was that he could have taken a ground ambulance. There was nothing to prove that he had to take this emergency airplane. And so, because of this, Cigna was able to avoid No Surprises Act and they didn’t pay for any of the bill.

Rovner: And, therefore, the patient was left on the hook.

Work: Yes. Amari and his family were left on the hook for the entire bill.

Rovner: So this feels like something that should have been taken care of with a phone call. The insurer calls the doctor and says, “Hey, why’d you order an air ambulance when the hospital’s only 100 miles away?” And the doctor says, “Because it was an infant on a ventilator.” But that would’ve been too easy, right?

Work: Yeah, exactly. There’s a lot of issues with this. First off, one of the best things about No Surprises Act is it’s supposed to take patients out of this. It’s supposed to make it so health plans and providers deal with all these negotiations before it even goes to a patient. But because of how this was handled, instead, Amari’s family is having to do all these negotiations. They’re the ones who are writing letters, using his medical records, to Cigna, and doing multiple appeals.

Rovner: And so far, has there been any progress or is the bill still outstanding?

Work: It’s still outstanding. His mother, Sara, has done two internal appeals. So that means she applied to have the bill changed within Cigna. They denied her both times. Right now she’s working on an external appeal, where an outside provider helps evaluate, and she’s still waiting to hear back on that.

Rovner: So what’s the takeaway here? I mean, obviously you take your critically ill child to a hospital, and they say he has to go, he needs a higher level of care, and recommends an air ambulance. Are you supposed to say, “Wait, I have to call my insurer first to make sure they’re not going to deem this medically unnecessary?”

Work: Yeah, that’s what’s so frustrating because obviously if any of us were in that situation, we would’ve done the same thing. If our baby was sick, we would do the emergency air ambulance, or what we would do what the doctors told us to do. I think what I’ve been hearing from people is that, first off, hospitals should become better acquainted with what plans cover. Of course, we can only hope. But the hospital, for example, should have checked which air-ambulance providers are covered by Cigna before they made the call, because the one they did call was out-of-network for Amari’s family. As patients, what you can really do is you just need to advocate for yourself. It’s easy to be intimidated, but there are lots of times that hospitals just get the medical bill wrong or insurance companies. So do what Sara is doing and appeal. If internal appeals don’t work, go push for that external appeal as well.

Rovner: Yes, these days it helps to know your rights and to try to exercise them when you have them. Molly Work, thank you so much.

Work: Thank you so much, Julie.

Rovner: OK, we are back. It’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Rachel, Rachel Zhang. Why don’t you go first this week? Yep. We have both Rachels.

Cohrs Zhang: Yes. Confusing. So I chose a story in 蘑菇影院 Health News actually, and the headline is “Ten Doctors on FDA Panel Reviewing Abbott Heart Device Had Financial Ties With Company.” And I think this was just a really illuminating explanation of some of the loopholes in conflict-of-interest disclosures with FDA advisory committees. There’s a lot of controversy over what role these committees should play, when they should meet. But we’re seeing them play some very high-profile roles in drug approvals as well. But we have a medical device reporter on our team, and we just think it’s such an important coverage area as we’re looking at the money that the medical device industry spends. And I mean, you’re looking at some of these advisory board members who’ve received, on , $200,000 from this company, and they’re not disclosing it because it’s not directly related to this individual device.

And I think it’s fair to say that some of them argued, “It was for a clinical study. The university got the money. I wasn’t spending it on a fancy car or something.” But nonetheless, I think there’s a good argument in this piece for some more stringent requirements for conflict of interest, especially if this data is publicly available.

Rovner: Yes, I was kind of taken this week about how very many good stories there were about investigations into conflicts of interest. Speaking of which, Rachel, other Rachel, why don’t you go next?

Roubein: My extra credit this week is titled “” and it’s a joint investigation by The Washington Post and The Examination, which is a new nonprofit newsroom that’s specializing in global health. And I thought it was a really fascinating window into the food industry and its practices at a time when the FDA and its commissioner wants to crack down, make front-of-package labeling more prevalent. And so basically the story dives into this anti-diet movement, which began as an effort to combat weight stigma and unhealthy obsession with thinness. And the movement has now become kind of a behemoth on social media, and basically food marketers are kind of trying to cash in here. The story kind of focused on one company in particular, General Mills, and its cereal, and the investigation found that the company launched a multipronged campaign to capitalize on the anti-diet movement and giveaways to registered dietitians who promote the cereals online. And I just thought it was kind of a fascinating exploration of all of these dynamics.

Rovner: Yes. Good journalism at work. Alice.

Ollstein: Yeah, I have a story from the Texas Tribune [““] by Eleanor Klibanoff about the impact of the court ruling that said that Title X federal family planning clinics that all across the country have a policy of dispensing contraception, prescribing contraception to teens, whether or not they have parental consent, and doing that in a 鈥� advancing privacy and protecting them in that way. There was just a recent court ruling that said, just in Texas, the state’s parental consent laws override that. And they found that at a lot of these clinics, instances of teens coming in and seeking contraception have really fallen off. These are teens, the story documents, who don’t feel comfortable going to their parents. There’s instances of parents even getting violent with their kids when they find out about this. And so it really shows the effect of this, and this is something we should be continuing to track because it went to the 5th Circuit and it could go to the Supreme Court. We don’t know yet.

Rovner: Yeah, we talked about this case a couple of weeks ago. It was another of those cases that was very much aimed at a particular judge that they were confident would rule in their favor, who indeed did rule in their favor.

All right, well, my extra credit this week is not an investigation, it’s just a story I really liked from Stat News from Rachel’s colleague Sarah Owermohle, and it’s called “.” And full disclosure, that is one of my dogs in the background messing with a bone. My dogs are not on Prozac, but I am, and we are all three the better for it. It’s a serious story, though, about how our mental health impacts that of our pets, not just vice versa, and about how so few new medicines there are for anxiety and depression. And as an officer of a dog training club, I will say that it’s more than humans’ projections. We are definitely seeing more dogs with behavioral issues than at any time that I can remember, and I’ve owned dogs all my life.

OK, that is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks as always to our technical guru, Francis Ying, and our editor, Emmarie Huetteman. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. You can still find me mostly at X. Alice, where are you these days?

Ollstein: I’m at on X, and on Bluesky.

Rovner: Rachel Zhang?

Cohrs Zhang: I’m at on X and also spending more time on LinkedIn these days.听

Rovner: Rachel Roubein?

Roubein: on X.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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It uses one of Hollywood’s favorite tropes: machines taking over. And the machines belong to the private health insurance company UnitedHealth Group.听

Host Dan Weissmann talks to Stat News reporter Bob Herman about his investigation into Medicare Advantage plans that use an algorithm to make decisions about patient care. The algorithm is owned by a subsidiary of UnitedHealth Group.

Herman tells Weissmann that some of UnitedHealth’s own employees say the algorithm creates a “moral crisis” in which care is unfairly denied.

Scary stuff! Such reporting even has caught the eye of powerful people in government, putting Medicare Advantage plans under scrutiny.

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Note: “An Arm and a Leg” uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

Dan: Hey there–

So this is kind of a horror story. But it’s not quite the kind of story it might sound like at first.

Because at first, it might sound like a horror story about machines taking over, making all the decisions– and making terrible, horrifying choices. Very age-of-Artificial Intelligence.

But this is really a story about decisions made by people. For money.

It’s also kind of a twofer sequel– like those movies that pit two characters from earlier stories against each other. Like Godzilla vs King Kong, or Alien vs Predator.

Although in this case, I’ve gotta admit, the two monsters are not necessarily fighting each other.

Let’s get reacquainted with them.听

On one side, coming back from our very last episode, we’ve got Medicare Advantage: This is the version of Medicare that’s run by private insurance companies.听

It’s got a bright and appealing side, compared to the traditional Medicare program run by the federal government, because: It can cost a lot less, month to month 鈥� saving people money on premiums. And it often comes with extra benefits, like dental coverage, which traditional Medicare doesn’t offer. [I know.]

But Medicare Advantage can have a dark side, which is basically: Well, you end up dealing with private insurance companies for the rest of your life. You need something 鈥� a test, a procedure, whatever 鈥� they might decide not to cover it.

Which can be scary.听

Our other returning monster 鈥� am I really calling them a monster? 鈥� well, last time we talked about them, in 2023, we had an expert calling them a behemoth. That’s United HealthGroup. You might remember, they’re not only one of the biggest insurance companies听

鈥� and maybe not-coincidentally the very biggest provider of Medicare Advantage plans 鈥�

they’ve also got a whole other business– under the umbrella name Optum. And Optum has spent the last bunch of years buying up a gazillion other health care companies of every kind.听

That includes medical practices 鈥� they employ more doctors than anyone else, by a huge margin. It includes surgery centers, and home-health companies, and every kind of middleman company you can imagine that works behind the scenes 鈥� and have their hands in a huge percentage of doctor bills and pharmacy visits.听

A few years ago, United bought a company called NaviHealth, which provides services to insurance companies that run Medicare Advantage plans.听

NaviHealth’s job is to decide how long someone needs to stay in a nursing home, like if you’re discharged from a hospital after surgery, but you’re not ready to go home yet.

And the horror story– the stories, as dug up by reporters 鈥� starts after United bought NaviHealth.

And according to their reports, it involves people getting kicked out of those nursing homes who aren’t ready to go home.听

People getting sent home who can’t walk up the stairs in their house. Who can’t walk at all. Who are on feeding tubes. People who NaviHealth’s own employees are saying, “Wait. This person isn’t ready to go home.”

But their new bosses have told them: You’re not really making these decisions anymore.听

This is where machines do enter the picture.

NaviHealth’s distinctive offering has always been its proprietary algorithm– an algorithm that makes predictions about how long any given patient might need to stay.听

Before United bought the company, that algorithm was used as a guide, a first-guess. Humans weighed in with their own judgment about what patients needed.

After United bought the company, people inside have told reporters, that changed: The new owners basically told their employees, If the algorithm says someone can go home after x days, that’s when we’re cutting them off.

听Like pretty much any horror movie, this story’s got people running around trying to tell everyone: HEY, WATCH OUT! THERE’S SOMETHING BIG AND DANGEROUS HAPPENING HERE.

And in this case, they’ve actually gotten the attention of some people who might have the power to do something about it. Now, what those people will do? We don’t know yet.听

And, by the way: Yes, I said at the end of our last episode that we’d be talking about Medicaid this time around. That’s coming! But for now, strap in for this one.听

This is An Arm and a Leg, a show about why health care costs so freaking much, and what we can maybe do about it. I’m Dan Weissmann. I’m a reporter, and I like a challenge. So our job on this show is to take one of the most enraging, terrifying, depressing parts of American life, and bring you something entertaining, empowering, and useful.

So. I said that, like every horror movie, this one has people who are seeing what’s going on and are trying to warn everybody?

Like those movies, we’re gonna follow one of those people, watch them discover the problem, see how deep it goes, and start ringing alarm bells. Let’s meet our guy.

Bob Herman: My name is Bob Herman. I’m a reporter at STAT News

Dan: Stat is an amazing medical news publication. Bob covers the business of medicine there. Bob started working on this story in November 2022, after talking to a source who runs nursing homes. Bob’s source was complaining about Medicare Advantage.听

Bob Herman: There were a lot of payment denials. They just weren’t able to get paid. And just offhandedly, the source mentioned like, um, you know, and they’re attributing everything to this algorithm. This algorithm said, You know, only 17 days for our patients and then time’s up and I went running to Casey Ross听

Dan: Casey is a reporter at Stat who focuses on tech and AI in healthcare. Bob said, hey, what do you think of this? Wanna team up?

Bob Herman: And he was hooked.

Dan: They started talking to people who worked at nursing homes, talking to experts, and talking to families. And it was clear: They were onto something.听

Bob Herman: It took so many families by surprise to be like, what do you mean we’re going home? The, you know, my husband, my wife, my grandma, my grandpa, they can’t go to the bathroom on their own. Like, what do you? It was just, it was so confusing to people. It seemed like such a, a cold calculation,鈥�

Dan: One person they ended up talking with was Gloria Bent. Her husband Gary was sent to a nursing home for rehab after brain surgery for cancer. He was weak. He couldn’t walk. And he had something called “left neglect”: His brain didn’t register that there was a left side of his body. Here’s Gloria testifying before a Senate committee about how 鈥� when Gary arrived at the nursing home 鈥� the first thing he got was a discharge date. That is鈥�

Gloria Bent: Before the staff of the facility could even evaluate my husband or develop a plan of care, I was contacted by someone who identified themselves as my Navi Health Care Coordinator

Dan: Gloria says when she told the nursing home staff she’d heard from NaviHealth, they groaned. And told her what to expect.听

Gloria Bent: I was told that I had just entered a battlefield, that I could expect a series of notices of denial of Medicare payment accompanied by a discharge date that would be two days after I got that notice.

Dan: Yeah, they said she’d get two days notice. Gloria says the nursing home staff told her she’d have 24 hours to appeal each of those, but even if she won, the denials would keep coming. In fact, they said,

Gloria Bent: If we won a couple of appeals, then we could expect that the frequency with which these denials were going to come would increase.

Dan: All of which happened. NaviHealth started issuing denials July 15, 2022, after Gary had been at the home for a month.

Gloria appealed. She told senators what the doctor who evaluated the appeal found: Gary couldn’t听 walk. He couldn’t even move 鈥� like from bed to a chair 鈥� without help from two people.. That reviewer took Gloria’s side.

Her husband’s next denial came a week after the first. Gloria won that appeal too. She says the reviewer noted that Gary needed maximum assistance with activities of daily living.听

The third denial came four days later, and this time Gloria lost.听

Gary came home in an ambulance: As Gloria testified, he couldn’t get into or out of a car without assistance from someone with special training.听

And when he got into the ambulance, he had a fever. The next morning, he wound up in another ambulance 鈥� headed to a hospital with meningitis. He lost a lot of the functioning he’d picked up at the nursing home.听

He died at home a few months later. When Gloria testified in the Senate, all of it was still fresh. She told them that as awful as Gary’s illness and decline had been, the fights with insurance were an added trauma.

Gloria Bent: This should not be happening to families and patients. It’s cruel. Our family continues to struggle with the question that I hear you asking today. Why are people who are looking at patients only on paper or through the lens of an algorithm

making decisions that deny the services judged necessary by health care providers who know their patients.

Dan: Bob Herman calls Gloria’s story heartbreaking, like so many others he’s seen.听

And his attention goes to one part of Gloria’s story beyond denial-by-algorithm.听

Because: It’s not just one denial. It’s that series of denials. You can appeal, but as Gloria testified, the denials speed up. And you have to win every single time. The company only has to win once.听

I mean, unless you’re ready to get a lawyer and take your chances in court– which, in addition to being a major undertaking, also means racking up nursing home bills and legal bills you may never get reimbursed for, while the court process plays out.听

Bob Herman: This appeal system is designed in such a way that people will give up. If you have a job, you know, even if you don’t, and you’re, and you’re also trying to take care of a family member, um, it’s a rigorous monotonous process that will chew people up and spit them out and then the people are inevitably going to give up. And I think in some ways insurers know that.

Dan: Going out on a limb to say: I think so too. So Bob and Casey’s first story on NaviHealth came out in March of 2023. They were the characters in the movie who go, “HEY, I THINK THERE’S SOMETHING REALLY BAD HAPPENING HERE.”

And people started paying attention. Like the U.S. Senate. which held that hearing where Gloria Bent told her story.听

And like the federal agency that runs Medicare 鈥� the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, CMS.听

CMS finalized a rule that told insurers: You can’t deny care to people just from using an algorithm.听

And something else happened too: Bob and Casey started suddenly getting a lot MORE information.听

Bob Herman: We received so many responses from people and it just opened the floodgates for former employees, just patients and family members, just everyone across the board.

Dan: And not just former employees. Current employees. And what they learned was: There was absolutely a strategy at work in how this algorithm was being used. It was strategy some people on the inside didn’t feel good about.听

And this strategy got developed after United HealthGroup 鈥� and its subsidiary, Optum– bought NaviHealth in 2020. And here’s what NaviHealth employees started telling Casey and Bob about that strategy.

Bob Herman: For some of us, it’s creating this moral crisis. Like we know that we are having to listen to an algorithm to essentially kick someone out of a nursing home, even though we know that they can barely walk 20 feet.

Dan: What Bob and Casey learned from insiders– and how it connects to United’s role as a health care behemoth– that’s next.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with 蘑菇影院 Health News. That’s a nonprofit newsroom covering healthcare in America. Their reporters do amazing work, and I’m honored to work with them. We’ll have a little more about 蘑菇影院 Health News at the end of this episode.

So, NaviHealth 鈥� the company with the algorithm 鈥� got started in 2015.. And the idea behind it was to use data to get people home faster from nursing homes if they didn’t actually need to be there.听

Because there was a lot of evidence that some people were being kept longer than they needed.听

Bob Herman: There is some validity to the idea that there’s, there’s wasteful care in Medicare, like, you know, there’s been cases in the past proving that people stay in a nursing home for way longer than is necessary. And obviously there’s financial incentives for nursing homes to keep people as long as possible.听

Dan: Traditional Medicare does have limits on nursing home care 鈥� but if you need “post-acute care” 鈥� help getting back on your feet after leaving a hospital traditional Medicare pays in full for 20 days– pretty much no questions asked. One of the selling points of Medicare Advantage 鈥� like selling points to policy nerds and politicians 鈥� was that it could cut waste, by asking those kinds of questions. NaviHealth and its algorithm were designed to help Medicare Advantage plans ask those questions in a smart way.听

Bob Herman: There were鈥� a lot of believers within NaviHealth that were like, okay, I think we’re doing the right thing. We’re trying to make sure people get home sooner because who doesn’t want to be at home.听听

Dan: And as those employees told Bob and Casey: Before United and Optum came in, the algorithm had been there as a guide 鈥� a kind of first guess 鈥� but not the final word.听

NaviHealth has staff people who interact directly with patients. And back in the day, the pre-United day, Bob and Casey learned that those staff could make their own judgments.听

Which made sense, because the algorithm doesn’t know everything about any individual case. It’s just making predictions based on the data it has.

Bob Herman: And there was just, just this noticeable change after United and OptiMentor that it felt more rigid. There’s no more variation.听

Dan: If the algorithm says you go, you are pretty much going.

Bob Herman: United has said, no, that’s not the case, but obviously these documents and other communications that we’ve gotten kind of say otherwise.

Dan: Because these employees weren’t just talking. They were sharing. Internal memos. Emails. Training materials. All making clear: The company wanted people shipped out on the algorithm’s timetable.听

Bob Herman: Documents came in showing that like this was a pretty explicit strategy. You know, UnitedHealth was telling its employees. Listen, we have this algorithm. We think it’s really good. So when it tells you how many, how many days someone should be in a nursing home, stick to it.

Dan: Stick to it or maybe be fired. Bob and Casey got documents 鈥� employee performance goals– saying: How close you stick to the algorithm’s recommendations? That’s part of how we’re evaluating your job performance.听

Bob Herman: It’s okay. Algorithm said 17 days, you better not really go outside of that because your job is on the line.听

Dan: Here’s how closely people were expected to stick to it. In 2022, employee performance goals shared with STAT showed that workers were expected to keep actual time in nursing homes to within three percent of what the algorithm said it should be. Across the board.

So, say you had 10 patients, and the algorithm said they each should get 10 days. That’s 100 days. Your job was to make sure that the total actual days for those patients didn’t go past 103 days.

Then, in 2023, the expectations got more stringent: Stay within one percent of the algorithm’s predictions. 10 patients, the algorithm says 100 days total? Don’t let it get past a hundred and one.听

Bob Herman: Like that is, almost nothing. Like what, what, your hands are tied. If you’re that employee, what are you going to do? Are you going to get fired? Are you going to do what you’re told?

Dan: And one person who ended up talking, to did get fired.听

Bob Herman: Correct. Yes. Uh, Amber Lynch did get fired And what she said was what we had also heard just more broadly was it, it created this internal conflict, like, Oh my God, what I’m doing doesn’t feel right.听

Dan: Amber Lynch was a case manager. She told Bob and Casey about onepatient who couldn’t climb the stairs in his home after knee surgery. But the algorithm said he was ready. Amber’s supervisor said, “Have you asked the nursing home staff if they’ve tried to teach him butt bumping?” Amber grit her teeth and made the suggestion to the rehab director.

Amber Lynch: And she looked at me like I had two heads. She’s like, he is 78 years old. He’s not going to do that. He’s not safe to climb the stairs yet. He’s not doing it. We’re not going to have it butt bump the stairs.

Dan: Amber told Bob and Casey that when she got fired, it was partly for failing to hit the one percent target and partly for being late with paperwork– which she told Bob and Casey she fell behind because her caseload was so heavy.

She wasn’t the only one with that complaint.听

Bob and Casey’s story shows another NaviHealth case manager– not named in the story because they’re still on the job 鈥� in their home office, struggling to keep up.听

That week, they were supposed to work with 27 patients and their families. Gather documents, hold meetings. Another week, shortly before, they’d had 40 patients.听

“Do you think I was able to process everything correctly and call everyone correctly the way I was supposed to?” the case manager asked. “No. It’s impossible. No one can be that fast and that effective and capture all of the information that’s needed.”

Bob and Casey watched this case manager fill out a digital form, feeding the algorithm the information it asked for on a man in his 80s with heart failure, kidney disease, diabetes and trouble swallowing, who was recovering from a broken shoulder.听

A few minutes later, the computer spat out a number: 17 days.听

The case manager didn’t have a lot of time or leeway to argue, but they were skeptical that the algorithm could get that number exactly right based on only the data it had.听

And what data is the algorithm working with? What’s it comparing the data on any given patient TO? Bob Herman says that’s a big question.

Bob Herman: It’s something that for sure, like Casey and I, it’s been bothering us. Like, what, how is this whole system? Like, what is it based on? And we were never really given straight answers on that. NaviHealth and Optum and United have said it’s based on millions of patient records over time. The sources of that, it’s, it’s a little unclear, where all that’s coming from.听

Dan: Bob and Casey talked with an expert named Ziad Obermeyer, a professor at the University of California Berkeley School of Public Health, who is not anti-algorithm. He actually builds algorithmic tools for decision making in public health.听

AND he’s done research showing that some widely-used algorithms just scale up and automate things like racial bias.

He told Bob and Casey: Using an algorithm based on how long other, earlier patients have stayed in a nursing home 鈥� that’s not a great idea.

Because people get forced out of nursing homes, in his words, “because they can’t pay or because their insurance sucks.” He said, “So the algorightm is basically learning all the inequalities of our current system.”

And leaving aside that kind of bias, it seems unlikely to Bob that any algorithm could predict exactly what every single patient will need every single time.听

No matter how much data it’s got, it’s predicting from averages.

Bob Herman: It reminds me of, like, a basketball game where let’s say someone averages 27 points per game. They don’t have 27 points every single, the game they go out there. It just varies from time to time.

Dan: But the NaviHealth algorithm doesn’t have to be right every time for United to make money using it.听

Using it to make decisions can allow United to boost profits coming and going.

Bob Herman: United health and the other insurance companies that use Navi health. Are using this technology to more or less kick people out of nursing homes before they’re ready. And that is the claims denial side where it’s like, okay, let’s save as much money as we can instead of having to pay it to a nursing home.

Dan: And that’s just one side of it. The insurance side. Claims denial. But United isn’t just in the insurance business.听

United’s Optum side is in every other part of health care.听

Including 鈥� in the years since United took over NaviHealth 鈥� home health services. The kind of services you’re likely to need when you leave a nursing home.

In 2022, Optum bought one top home health company in what one trade publication called a “monster, jaw-dropping mega-deal” 鈥� more than 5 billion dollars. In 2023, Optum made a deal to buy a second mega-provider.听

Bob and Casey’s story says NaviHealth’s shortening nursing home stays is integral to United’s strategy for these acquisitions. It does seem to open up new opportunities.

Bob Herman: You’re out of the nursing home because our algorithm said so. Now we’re going to send you to a home health agency or we’re going to send some home health aides into your home. And by the way, we own them.听

Dan: Oh, right, because: If you’re in a Medicare Advantage plan, your insurer can tell you which providers are covered.听

Bob Herman: So the real question becomes, how much is United potentially paying itself?

Dan: That is: How much might United end up taking money out of one pocket 鈥� the health insurance side 鈥� and paying itself into another pocket, Optum’s home-health services?

We don’t know the answer to how much United is paying itself in this way, or hoping to. And United has said its insurance arm doesn’t favor its in-house businesses.

But it seems like a reasonable question to ask. Actually, it’s a question the feds seem to be asking.

Optum hasn’t wrapped up its purchase of that second home-health company yet, and in February 2024, the Wall Street Journal and other outlets reported that the U.S. Department of Justice had opened an anti-trust investigation.听

And you don’t have to be in a Medicare Advantage plan run by United to get kicked out of a nursing home on an algorithm’s say-so.听

Bob Herman says NaviHealth sells its algorithm-driven services to other big insurance companies听

He says, put together, the companies that use NaviHealth cover as many as听 15 million people 鈥� about half of everybody in Medicare Advantage.

Bob Herman: Odds are, if you’re in a Medicare Advantage plan, there’s a, there’s a really good shot that your coverage policies, if you get really sick and need nursing home care, for example, or any kind of post acute care, an algorithm could be at play at some point.

Dan: This is the dark side of Medicare Advantage.听

Bob Herman: Everyone loves their Medicare Advantage plan when they first sign up, right? Because it’s offering all these bells and whistles. It’s, here’s a gym membership. It’s got dental and vision, which regular Medicare doesn’t have. And it’s also just, it’s, it’s cheaper. Like, if it’s just from a financial point of view, if, if you’re a low income senior, How do you turn it down? There’s, there’s so many plans that offer like free, there’s no monthly premiums in addition to all the bells and whistles. But Nobody understands the trade offs , When you’re signing up for Medicare and Medicare Advantage, you’re on the healthier side of, of being a senior, right?

Dan: And none of us can count on staying healthy forever. When you sign up for Medicare听 you’re signing up your future self 鈥� whether that’s ten or twenty or more years out. That future you, might really need good medical care.听

And at that point, as we explained in our last episode, if Medicare Advantage isn’t working for you, you may not be able to get out of it.

Bob Herman: You could potentially not fully get the care that you need. We shouldn’t assume that, that this couldn’t happen to us because it can.听

Dan: So, yeah. Kind of a horror story. But: Unlike some horror movies, when Bob and Casey started publishing their stories, they started getting people’s attention.

We mentioned the new rules from the feds and the senate hearings after Bob and Casey’s first story in March 2023

Later in the year, when Bob and Casey published their story with documents and stories from inside NaviHealth, a class-action lawsuit got filed.

Since then, CMS has said it will step up audits under its new rules.听

Bob Herman: There was a memo that CMS sent out to Medicare advantage plans that said, Hey, listen, we’re telling you again, do not deny care solely on any AI or algorithms. Like just don’t do it.听

Dan: And in February 2024, the Senate held another hearing.听

Here’s Senator Elizabeth Warren at that hearing, saying these CMS rules aren’t enough. We need stronger guardrails.

Elizabeth Warren: Until CMS can verify that AI algorithms reliably adhere to Medicare coverage standards by law, then my view on this is CMS should prohibit insurance companies from using them in their MA plans for coverage decisions. They’ve got to prove they work before they put them in place.

Dan: So people 鈥� people with at least some power– are paying some attention.听

Bob Herman: I don’t think this is necessarily going to escape. Political scrutiny for a while.听

Dan: So, basically, the story isn’t over.听

This isn’t one of those horror movies where the monster’s been safely defeated at the end, and everybody just starts cleaning up the mess. And it’s not one where the monster is just on the loose, unleashing the apocalypse.听

Because it’s not a movie. There’s no ending. There’s just all of us trying to figure out what’s going on, and what we can maybe do about it.

One last thing: I got a lot of emails after our last episode, where we laid out a lot of information about Medicare Advantage and traditional Medicare. Most of it was along the lines of, Thank you! That was really helpful! Which made me feel really good.

And we got a couple notes about things we could have done better. Especially this: We said Traditional Medicare leaves you on the hook for 20 percent of everything, without an out of pocket limit.听

Which is true 鈥� but only for Medicare Part B: Doctor visits, outpatient surgeries and tests. Which can add up, for sure.

Medicare Part A 鈥� if you’re actually hospitalized 鈥� covers most services at 100 percent, after you meet the deductible. In 2024 that’s one thousand, six hundred thirty-two dollars.听

Thanks to Clarke Lancina for pointing that out.听

There have been a bunch of other, amazing notes in my inbox recently, and I want to say: Please keep them coming.听

If you go to arm and a leg show dot com, slash, contact, whatever you type there goes straight to my inbox. You can attach stuff too: documents鈥� voice memos.听

Please let me hear from you. That’s arm and a leg show dot com, slash contact.

I’ll catch you in a few weeks.听

Till then, take care of yourself.

This episode of an arm and a leg was produced by me, Dan Weissmann, with help from Emily Pisacreta, and edited by Ellen Weiss.听

Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard. Our music is by Dave Weiner and blue dot sessions. Extra music in this episode from Epidemic Sound.

Gabrielle Healy is our managing editor for audience. She edits the first aid kit newsletter.听

Bea Bosco is our consulting director of operations. Sarah Ballama is our operations manager.听

And Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with 蘑菇影院 Health News. That’s a national newsroom producing in depth journalism about healthcare in America and a core program at 蘑菇影院, an independent source of health policy research, polling and journalism.听

Zach Dyer is senior audio producer at 蘑菇影院 Health News. He’s editorial liaison to this show.听

And thanks to the Institute for Nonprofit News for serving as our fiscal sponsor, allowing us to accept tax exempt donations. You can learn more about INN at INN. org.听

Finally, thanks to everybody who supports this show financially– you can join in any time at arm and a leg show dot com, slash, support 鈥� and thanks for listening.

“An Arm and a Leg” is a co-production of 蘑菇影院 Health News and Public Road Productions.

To keep in touch with “An Arm and a Leg,”听. You can also听follow the show on听听补苍诲听. And if you’ve got stories to tell about the health care system, the producers听.

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Florida this week became a major focus for advocates on both main sides of the abortion debate. The Florida Supreme Court simultaneously ruled that the state’s 15-week ban, passed in 2022, can take effect immediately before a more sweeping, six-week ban replaces it in May and that voters can decide in November whether to create a state right to abortion.

Meanwhile, President Joe Biden, gearing up for the general election campaign, is highlighting his administration’s health accomplishments, including drug price negotiations for Medicare.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of 蘑菇影院 Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins University schools of nursing and public health, Tami Luhby of CNN, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Panelists

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Florida Supreme Court’s decisions this week will affect abortion access not only in the state, but also throughout the region. Florida’s six-week ban, which takes effect on May 1, would leave North Carolina and Virginia as the only remaining Southern states offering the procedure beyond that point in pregnancy 鈥� and, in North Carolina, abortion is banned at 12 weeks after a woman’s last menstrual period.
• Since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned the constitutional right to an abortion in 2022, six states have voted on their own constitutional amendments related to abortion access. In every case, the side favoring abortion rights has won. But Florida’s measure this fall will appear on the ballot with the presidential race. Could the two contests, waged side by side, boost turnout and influence the results?
• Former President Donald Trump made many attempts during his term to undermine the Affordable Care Act, and this week the Biden administration reversed another one of those lingering attempts. Under a new regulation, the use of short-term insurance plans will be limited to four months 鈥� down from 36 months under Trump. The plans, which Biden officials call “junk plans” due to their limited benefits, will also be required to provide clearer explanations of coverage to consumers.
• In other Biden administration news, March has come and gone without the release of an anticipated ban on menthol flavoring in tobacco, and anti-tobacco groups are suing to force administration officials to finish the job. Menthol cigarettes are particularly popular in the Black community, and 鈥� like Trump’s decision as president to punt a ban on vaping to avoid alienating voters in 2020 鈥� the Biden administration may be loath to raise the issue this year. Activists say, however, that it may be at the expense of Black lives.
• “This Week in Medical Misinformation” looks at an article from PolitiFact about the health misinformation that persists even with the pandemic mostly in the rearview mirror.

Also this week, Rovner interviews health care analyst Jeff Goldsmith about the growing size and influence of UnitedHealth Group in the wake of the Change Healthcare hack.

Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:听

Julie Rovner: Politico’s “,” by Megan Messerly and Alice Miranda Ollstein.

Tami Luhby: The Washington Post’s “,” by Dan Diamond.

Lauren Weber: The Washington Post’s “,” by Lena H. Sun and Rachel Roubein.听听

Joanne Kenen: The 19th’s “,” by Kate Martin, APM Reports.

Also mentioned on this week’s podcast:

• 蘑菇影院 Health News’ “ACA Plans Are Being Switched Without Enrollees’ OK,” by Julie Appleby.
• 蘑菇影院 Health News’ “Your Doctor or Your Insurer? Little-Known Rules May Ease the Choice in Medicare Advantage,” by Susan Jaffe.
• Health Affairs’ “” by Jeff C. Goldsmith.
• The Health Care Blog’s “,” by Jeff Goldsmith.

蘑菇影院 Health News’ 鈥榃hat the Health?’Episode Title: Florida Limits Abortion 鈥� For NowEpisode Number: 341Published: April 4, 2024

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]听

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for 蘑菇影院 Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 4, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this, so here we go.

We are joined today via video conference by Tami Luhby of CNN.

Tami Luhby: Good morning.

Rovner: Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins University Schools of Nursing and Public Health and Politico magazine.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Lauren Weber, the Washington Post.

Lauren Weber: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have an interview with Health Policy Analyst and Consultant Jeff Goldsmith about the continuing fallout from the Change Healthcare hack. But first, this week’s news. One of these weeks, we won’t have to lead with abortion news, but this is not that week. On Monday, the Florida Supreme Court ruled separately, but at the same time, that state voters could decide this November whether to make a right to abortion part of the state’s constitution and that the state’s constitution currently does not guarantee that right.

So the state’s 15-week abortion ban signed by Gov. Ron DeSantis in April of 2022 can take immediate effect. But wait, there’s more. First, the decision on the 15-week ban overruled years of precedent that Florida’s Constitution did, in fact, protect the right to abortion. And second, allowing the 15-week ban to take effect automatically triggers an even more sweeping six-week ban that Gov. DeSantis signed in 2023. That will take effect May 1. That’s the one he signed in the middle of the night without an audience people may remember. And this is going to affect far more people than just the population of Florida, right?

Kenen: The whole South. This is it. If you count the South as North Carolina and what we think of as the South, North Carolina is the only state that still has legal abortion, and that is only up to 12 weeks. And there are some conditions and hurdles, but you can still get an abortion in North Carolina.

But to get from a place, people were going to Florida, it’s easier to get from Alabama to Florida than it is from Alabama to even Charlotte. I think I read it’s a 17-hour drive from Florida or something like that. I don’t remember. It’s long. So it’s not just people who live within Florida, but people who live in 11 or 12 states in the American South have far fewer options.

Rovner: And even though the Florida ban feels less than a complete ban because it allows abortions up to six weeks, the fine print actually makes this one of the most restrictive bans in the country. It looks, in effect, like most people won’t be able to get abortions in Florida at all.

Weber: I would say that’s right, Julie. And just to reiterate what Joanne said, 80,000 women get abortions in Florida every year. That’s about one in 12 women in America that get abortions per year, and they will no longer have that kind of access because, at six weeks, a lot of women don’t know they’re pregnant. So, I mean, that’s a very restrictive abortion ban.

Rovner: Remember that six weeks isn’t really six weeks of having been pregnant. Six weeks is six weeks since your last menstrual period, which can be as little as two weeks in some cases.

Kenen: And I also think that even if you do know within six weeks, getting an appointment, given how few places there are in the entire South, even if you know and you get on the phone right away, can you get an appointment before your six weeks is an additional challenge because access is really limited 鈥�

Rovner: Right.

Kenen: 鈥� intentionally.

Rovner: Yes, and we’ve seen this with other six-week bans. We should point out that some people consider Virginia the South still, and you can go to Virginia, but that’s basically the last place that a good chunk of the country, geographically, if not population-wise, would need to turn to in order to get an abortion.

Well, if that’s not all confusing enough, even if voters do approve the ballot measure in November, the Florida Supreme Court suggested it could still strike down a right to abortion based on a majority of justices findings that the state’s constitution could include personhood rights for fetuses.

I’m having trouble wrapping my head around why the justices would allow a vote whose results they might then overturn. But I guess this is part of the continuing evolution, if you will, to use that word, of this concept of personhood for fetuses and embryos, and what has us talking about IVF, right?

Weber: Yeah, absolutely. I think, as many conservative Christian groups will say, this is the natural line that pro-life is. I mean, they argue, and while they’re pushing this view is not necessarily held by the majority of constituents, but this is their argument that a fetus, an embryo, such as one that could be used in IVF, is a person.

And so, I mean, I think that’s kind of the natural conclusion of pro-life ideology as we’re seeing it right now. And I think it will have a lot of political effects going forward because that IVF is obviously much more popular than abortion. I think we’ll see a lot of voting firepower potentially used on that.

Rovner: Well, I’m so glad you said that because I want to turn to politics. Some Democrats are suggesting that this could boost turnout for Democrats and help, if not put Florida in play for president, maybe the Democrat running to unseat Senator Rick Scott, the Republican.

On the other hand, while abortion ballot questions have done very well around the country, as we know, even in states redder than Florida, there is evidence that some Republicans vote for abortion rights measures and then turn around and vote at the same time for Republicans who would then vote to overturn them.

There are in fact Florida abortion rights advocates who don’t want Democrats to make this issue partisan because they want Republicans to come and vote for the ballot measure, which needs a 60% majority to pass, even if those Republicans then go on to vote for other Republicans. So, who really is helped by this entire mess, or is it impossible to tell at this point?

Weber: I think it’s impossible to tell, but I do think what is complicating is we haven’t seen the presidential race thrown into these abortion ballots. I mean, what we’re looking at is two candidates who potentially are facing a lot of low turnout due to lack of enthusiasm in their bases for both of them. And I am curious if the abortion ballot measures could have much more of an impact on the presidential race than maybe some of these other lower-office races that we’ve seen. I think that’s the main question that I guess we’ll see in November.

Rovner: As we have spoken about many times, President Biden is not super comfortable talking about this issue. He’s an 81-year-old Catholic. It does not come naturally to him to be in favor of abortion rights, which he now is. But Vice President Harris has been sent out. She’s sort of become the standard-bearer for this administration on reproductive health issues, and she’s been very active. And Joanne, you wanted to say something?

Kenen: There are a couple of points. In addition to the abortion ballot initiative. There’s also a marijuana legalization. I think we will see higher turnout and particularly among younger people who have been pretty disaffected this election. So that’s one, whether it affects the presidential race, whether it affects the Senate race. I mean, just as Democrats feel really strong about abortion, Republicans feel really strong about immigration. We don’t know what’s going to happen in November, but I do think this boosts turnout. The second thing to remember, though, is in terms of abortion ballot initiatives have passed every time they’ve come up since the fall of Roe [v. Wade].

This is a 60% threshold, and I do not believe that any state has reached that. I think the highest was about 57%. So even though it may get well over 50, it could get 59.9, the Florida ballot initiative needs 60%. That is a tall order. So you might end up seeing a big turnout, a big pro-abortion rights vote, maybe a big legal weed vote, and the abortion measure could still fail. But I do think it definitely changes the dynamics of Florida from the presidential race on down the ballot. I do think it is a different race than we would’ve seen beforehand.

Rovner: And I will point out, since she didn’t, that Joanne has spent time covering Florida and covering the politics in Florida. So you know where of you speak on this.

Kenen: Well, I lived there for a while, though it was a while ago. The state has, in fact, changed like everything else, including me, right? But I’m somewhat familiar with Florida. I was just there a few weeks ago in fact.

Rovner: And I want to underscore something that Lauren said, which is that we’ve seen all of these ballot measures since Roe was overturned, but we have not seen these ballot measures stacked on top of the presidential race. So I think that will be interesting to watch as we go forward this year.

Well, back here in D.C., the Biden administration issued a long-awaited rule reigning in the use of those short-term health plans that Democrats like to call junk insurance and that President Trump had expanded when he was in office. Tami, what is the new rule, and what will it do?

Luhby: Well, it’s actually curtailing the short-term plans and pretty much reversing the Trump administration rule. So it’s the latest move by the president to contrast his approach to health care with that of former President Donald Trump. Trump extended the duration of the short-term health insurance plans to just under a year and allowed them to be renewed for a total of 36 months. And it was seen as an effort to weaken the Affordable Care Act, draw out younger people, make it more difficult for the marketplace, probably send the older, sicker people there, which would raise premiums, basically cause more chaos in the marketplace.

Rovner: Yeah. And remind us why these plans can be problematic.

Luhby: I will tell you that the short-term plans do not have to adhere to Obamacare’s consumer protections, which is the big difference. For instance, they’re not required to provide comprehensive coverage, and they can discriminate against people with pre-existing conditions, charge them more, deny them, et cetera. As I’d said, the Trump administration heralded them as a cheaper alternative because since they can underwrite, they have typically cheaper premiums. But they also have very limited benefits, or they can have limited benefits depending on the patient or the consumer.

So the Biden rule, which was proposed last month as a series of actions aimed at lowering health care costs, limits the duration of new sales of these controversial plans to three months, with the option of renewal for a maximum of four months. So it’s going on these new plans from 36 months potentially to four months, which was the original idea of these plans because originally they were thought to be for people who might be switching jobs or have a temporary lapse in coverage. They were not intended to be a substitute for full insurance. And it also requires, notably, that the plans provide consumers with a clear explanation of their benefits and inform them of how to find more comprehensive coverage.

Rovner: And obviously this will continue to be controversial, but I think the Democrats, in general, who support the Affordable Care Act feel pretty strongly that this is something that’s going to help them. And as we talked about, we’re not sure yet how the administration is going to play the abortion issue in the campaign, but it is pretty clear that they are doubling down on health care.

One problem for the administration, as we have talked about, is that particularly on really popular things like Medicare drug price negotiations, lots of the public has no idea that that’s happened or if it’s happened that it’s because the Democrats did it. So, in part of an effort to overcome that, Biden invited Bernie Sanders to the White House this week. What was that about?

Luhby: Well, that’s my extra credit. Would you like me to discuss that now?

Rovner: Sure, let’s do that now.

Luhby: OK. So my extra credit is a Washington Post story titled “,” by Dan Diamond. And I have to admit, I hope I can do that here, that I am a fangirl of Dan Diamond’s stories, and even more so now because apparently, the Biden administration gave Dan a heads-up in advance, that since he published a pretty in-depth story an hour before the embargo lifted for the rest of us who were only given a few tidbits of information about what this meeting or what this speech was going to be about at the uncharacteristically late hour of 8:30 at night.

So Dan’s story looked at how the two former rivals, Joe Biden and [Sen.] Bernie Sanders, who were rivals in the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination, how they had very different views on how the nation’s health care system should operate and Dan’s story looked at how they were uniting to improve awareness of Biden’s efforts to lower drug prices and improve his chances in November. Biden invited Sanders to the White House to discuss the administration’s actions on drug prices, including the latest effort to reduce the out-of-pocket cost of inhalers, which really hasn’t gotten a lot of press.

Sanders brings his progressive credentials and his two-decade-plus track record of fighting for lower drug prices and, “naming and shaming individual pharmaceutical companies and executives.” He’s known to be pretty outspoken and fiery. So the story’s a good example of policy meets politics in an election year. It relays that most Americans still don’t know about the administration’s efforts despite the numerous speeches, news releases, and officials’ trips around the country, hence the need to tap Sanders, and it also provides a nice walk down memory lane, revisiting the duo’s battles in the 2020 primary as well as some of former President Trump’s drug price efforts.

Rovner: Yeah. And a little peek behind the journalistic curtain. I think we all got this sort of mysterious note from Sanders’ press people the night before saying, “If you’ll agree to our embargo, we’ll tell you about this secret thing that’s going to happen,” followed by an advisory from the White House saying that Bernie Sanders was coming to the White House to talk about drugs. [inaudible 00:13:30] 鈥�

Luhby: Right. And also, uncharacteristically, when I asked for a comment from Sanders directly, they said tomorrow, which is not like Sanders at all.

Kenen: Sanders and Biden were obviously opponents in the primary, but Sanders has really been very supportive of Biden. I think he’s really sort of highlighted the progressive things that Biden has done and stayed quiet about the more centrist things that Biden has done. He’s been a real ally, and he still has a lot of credibility, and I think they sort of like each other in a funny way. You can sort of see it, but that’s their issue.

Luhby: Biden has also been able to do things that other people have not been able to do with the congressional Democrats. Biden has been able to do things that congressional Democrats have tried to for years and have not been able to, and they may not be the extent to which the Democrats would like. If you remember the 2019 Medicare Drug Negotiation bill, I think, was 250 drugs a year. What ended up passing in the IRA [Inflation Reduction Act] was 10 drugs and ramping up, but at least it’s something.

Kenen: And it’s more than 20 years in the making. I mean, this goes way, way back.

Luhby: Mm-hmm.

Rovner: And I was going to underscore something that Joanne said earlier about Florida, which is that both sides are trying to gin up their base, and young people are really fond of Bernie Sanders in a lot of the things that he says, and this may be a way that Biden can ironically use the Medicare drug price negotiation issue to stir up his young person base to get them out to vote. So I was interested in the combination.

Kenen: So it’s Bernie Sanders and legal weed.

Rovner: That’s right. It’s Bernie Sanders and legal weed, at least in Florida.

Kenen: I’m not implying anything about Bernie Sanders’ use of it. It’s just the dynamic for the young voters.

Rovner: Yes. Things to draw young people out to the polls in November. Well, while the Biden administration is doing lots of things using its regulatory power, one thing it is not doing, at least not yet, is banning menthol flavoring in tobacco.

This is a regulation that’s now been sitting around for nearly two years and that officials had promised to finalize by the end of March, which of course was last week and which didn’t happen. So now three anti-tobacco groups have sued to try to force the regulation over the finish line. Somebody remind us why banning menthol is so very controversial.

Weber: It’s controversial in part because a lot of industry will say that banning menthol will lead to over-policing in Black communities. The jury is very much out on if that is an accurate representation or part of the cigarette playbook to keep cigarettes on the market. Look, a presidential election year and things to do with smoking is not new.

When I was at 蘑菇影院 Health News with Rachel Bluth back in the day, we wrote a story about how Trump postponed a vape ban to some extent because he was worried about vaping voters. So I mean, I think what you’re seeing is a pretty clear political calculus by the Biden folks to push this off into the new year, but as activists and public health advocates will say, it’s at the expense of, potentially, Black lives.

Rovner: That’s right.

Weber: So banning menthol cigarettes would really鈥� what it would do is statistically save Black Americans who die from, predominantly from smoking these types of cigarettes. So it’s a pretty weighty decision to put off with a political calculus.

Rovner: He’s taking incoming from both sides. I mean, obviously, there are members of the Black community who say, as you point out, this could lead to an unnecessary crackdown on African American smokers who use menthol more statistically than anybody else does. Although, there’s some young people who use it too. On the other hand, you have people representing public health for the Black community saying, “We want you to ban this” because, as you point out, people are dying from smoking-related illnesses by using this product. So it’s a win-win, lose-lose here that is continuing on. We’ll be interested to see what, if the lawsuit can produce anything.

Well, speaking of things that are controversial, we also have Medicare Advantage. The private plan alternative to traditional Medicare now enrolls more than half of those in the program, many who like the extra benefits that often come with the plans and others who feel that they can’t afford traditional Medicare’s premiums and other cost-sharing. Except one reason those extra benefits exist is because the government is overpaying those Medicare Advantage plans. That’s a vestige of Republican plans to discourage enrollment in original Medicare that date back to the early part of this century.

So now taxpayers are footing more of the Medicare bill than they should. This week’s news is that the federal government is effectively trimming back some of those overpayments. And investors in the insurance companies, who make money from the overpayments, are going crazy. This is the subhead on a story from the Wall Street Journal, “Managed care stocks are set to fall due to disappointment with the government’s decision not to revise the 2025 Medicare payment proposal.” How is this ever going to get sorted out? Somebody always is going to be a loser in this game, either the patients or the insurance companies or the taxpayers. Everybody cannot win here.

Luhby: Right. And Humana got hit really hard when the rule came out because it is really focused on Medicare Advantage. So yeah, the insurers were hit, but as everything with the market, it’s not forever.

Rovner: I’m continually puzzled by 鈥� if the payments were equivalent, which was what they were originally supposed to be. Originally, originally back in the 1980s, insurance companies came to Congress and said, “We can provide managed care and Medicare cheaper, so you can pay us 95% of the average that you pay for a fee for service patient. We can make a profit on that.”

Well, that is long since gone. The question is how much more they will make. And as I point out, when they get overpaid, they do have to rebate those back effectively to the patients in terms of higher benefits. And that’s why many of them offer dental coverage and eyeglasses coverage and other types of, quote-unquote, extra benefits that Medicare doesn’t offer.

But also you get this lack of choice, and so we see when people try to leave these plans and go back to traditional Medicare, they can’t, which is only one of the sort of things that I think a lot of people don’t know about how Medicare Advantage works. Another place with an awful lot of small print.

Weber: It’s a lot of small print under a very good marketing name. The name itself implies that you’re making a better choice, but that isn’t necessarily what the small print would say.

Kenen: And there are people who are very satisfied with it and who get great care. I mean, it’s not monolithic. I mean, it is popular. It is growing and growing and growing. It’s partly economic, and there’s some plans that patients like, and there’s word of mouth or that were negotiated as part of union agreements and are actually pretty strong benefits. But they’re also people who are really encountering a lot of trouble with prior authorization, and limited networks, and your doctor’s no longer in it, et cetera, et cetera.

I think that those things, I actually checked with somebody about the provider networks, what we know about who’s dropping out, and I don’t think there’s really up-to-date data, but there is a perception, and you’re hearing it and seeing it online. But they do an incredible amount of marketing, an incredible amount of marketing. And if you’re in it and you like it and you save money and you’re getting great health care, terrific. You’re going to stay in it.

If you’re in it and you don’t like it and you’re not getting great health care and a lot of hassles or you can’t see the right doctors, it’s hard to get out and get back into it depending on what state you’re living 鈥� It’s not monolithic. But I think we might be between the financial pressures from the government and some of the debates about some of these things they’re doing there may be some reconsideration. But they have strong backers in Congress and not just Republicans.

Rovner: Oh, yeah. I mean, and as you point out, more than half of the people in Medicare are now on Medicare Advantage. I did want to sort of highlight my colleague Susan Jaffe, who has a story this week about the fact that patients can’t change plans in the middle of the year, but plans can drop providers in the middle of the year, so people may sign up for a health plan because their doctor or their hospital is in it and then suddenly find out mid-year that their doctor and their hospital is no longer in it.

There are occasionally, if you’re in the middle of treatment, there are opportunities sometimes to change, but often there aren’t. People do end up in these plans, and they can be happy for, basically, until they’re not, that there are trade-offs when you do it. And I think, as we point out, there’s so much marketing, and the marketing somehow doesn’t ever talk about the trade-offs that you make when you go into Medicare Advantage.

Luhby: Well, one also thing is that this is the peak 65 year, where the most baby boomers, and where are they coming from? They’re coming from private commercial insurance, so they’re familiar with it, and they were like, “Oh, OK, that’s seemingly very much like my employer plan. Sure, that sounds great. I know how to deal with that.” So that’s one of the things. And one cudgel that the insurers have is they say, “Oh, government, you’re going reduce our payments. We’re going to reduce the benefits and increase the premiums because we’re not going to have all of that extra government funding.” And that can scare the government because they don’t want the insurers to tell their patients, who are older patients who vote, “Oh, because of the government, we can no longer offer you all of these benefits, or we’ve had to raise your premium because of that.” So we’ll see if they actually do that.

Kenen: Joe Biden took away your gym, right?

Luhby: Exactly.

Rovner: [inaudible 00:22:11].

Luhby: And your dental benefits. So that’s always the threat that the insurers roll out. That’s the first thing that they say often, but we’ll see what happens. We don’t know yet until the fall, when enrollment starts, what will actually happen?

Rovner: We saw exactly that in the late ’90s after Congress balanced the budget. They took a big whack out of the payments for what was then, I think, called Medicare Plus Choice. It was the previous version of Medicare Advantage, and a lot of the companies just completely dropped out of the program. And a lot of the people, who as Joanne said, had been in those plants had been very happy, threw a fit and came to Congress to complain, and lo and behold, a lot of those payments got increased again. In fact, that was what led to the big increase in payments in 2003 was the huge cut that they made to payments, which drove a lot of the insurers out of the program. So we do know that the insurers will pack up and leave if they’re not paid what they consider to be enough to stay in the program.

Moving on. One of the things that Jeff Goldsmith talks about in this week’s interview is that our health system has become one of deep distrust between patients, providers, and insurers. Speaking of Medicare Advantage. That is sad and dysfunctional, except that sometimes there are good reasons for that distrust. One example comes this week from my 蘑菇影院 Health News colleague Julie Appleby. It seems that unscrupulous insurance brokers are disenrolling people in Obamacare plans from their health plans and putting them in different plans, which is unbeknownst to them until they find their doctor is no longer in their network or their drug isn’t covered.

The brokers who are doing this can earn bigger commissions. But patients can end up not just having to pay for their own medical care but owing the government money because suddenly they’re in plans getting subsidies that don’t match their incomes. It is a big mess. And it seems that the obvious solution, which would be making it harder for agents to access people’s enrollment information so they can switch them, would delay legitimate enrollment. It has to be easy for agents to basically manipulate people’s applications. So how do you guard against bad actors without inconveniencing everyone? This seems to be the question here and the question for Medicare Advantage, Lauren.

Weber: I was going to say, I mean, I think that’s the question Medicare itself has been dealing with for years. I mean, there’s a reason that many federal prosecutors call this a pay-and-chase situation in which there is rampant Medicare fraud. They prioritize the ease of patients accessing care to the disadvantage of some folks, or in this case, the American taxpayer, in this case, actual patients, being swindled.

But I don’t have an answer. I don’t think anyone really has an answer, considering we’re seeing things like the $2 billion catheter fraud that we’ve talked about here. So I think again, this is one of these things where the government’s been left a little flat-footed in trying to protect against bad actors.

Rovner: Yeah, well, the health sector is what a fifth of the economy now, so I guess it shouldn’t come as much of a surprise that you have not just bad actors, people who are making a lot of money from doing illegal things and find it to be worth their while and that some of them get caught, but presumably most of them don’t. I guess that’s what happens when you have that much money in one place, you need sort of better watchdogs. All right. Well, finally, this week in medical misinformation comes from PolitiFact in a story called “Four Years After Shelter-in-Place, Covid-19 Misinformation Persists.” That’s an understatement.

That last part was mine. At the top of the list says, “We have discussed before is growing resistance to vaccines in general, not just the covid vaccine,” which is not all that surprising considering how many people now believe fictitious stories about celebrities dropping dead immediately after receiving vaccines. There’s even a movie called “Died Suddenly.” Or that government leaders and the superrich orchestrated the pandemic. That’s another popular story that goes around. Or that Dr. Tony Fauci brought the virus to the United States a year before the pandemic. Lauren, health misinformation is your beat. Is it getting any better now that the pandemic is largely behind us, or is it just continuing unabated?

Weber: No, I would argue it’s possibly getting worse because the trust in institutions is at an all-time low. Social media has allowed for fire hose. I mean, it’s made everything 鈥� it’s made the public square that used to be more limited, all corners of the country.

I would say that misinformation has led to mistrust about basic medical things, including childhood vaccinations, but also other medical treatment and care. And I think you’re really seeing this kind of post-truth world post-covid, this distrust, this misinfo is going to continue for some time. And there’s too much to cover on my beat. There’s constantly stories around the bend, and I don’t expect that improving anytime soon.

Kenen: Every single time a celebrity, not just dies, because it’s always no matter what happens, it’s blamed on the covid vaccine, but also gets sick. I mean, Princess Kate. We don’t know everything about her health, but I mean, all of us know it wasn’t. Whatever it is, it’s not because the covid vaccine. But if you go online, you hear that that’s whatever she has it’s because she’s vaccinated.

And the other thing is it’s fed into this general vaccine mistrust. So when I wrote about the RSV vaccine, which we talked about a few weeks ago, it wasn’t so much that there’s a campaign against the RSV vaccine. There is somewhat of that. But it’s just this massive, “vaccines are bad.” So it’s spilling over into anything with a needle attached is part of this horrible plot to kill us all. So it’s just sort of this miasma of anti-vaccination that’s hovering over a lot of health care.

Rovner: Well, at the risk of getting a little too bleak, that will be the news for this week. Now, we will play my interview with Jeff Goldsmith, and then we’ll come back and do our extra credits. I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast Jeff Goldsmith, one of my favorite big-picture health system analysts. Jeff has been writing of late about the hack and the growing size and influence of its owner, UnitedHealth Group, and what that means for the country’s entire health enterprise. Jeff, thanks for joining us again.

Jeff Goldsmith: You bet.

Rovner: So the lead of your latest piece gives a pretty vivid description of just how big United has become, and I just want to read it. “Years ago, the largest living thing in the world was thought to be the blue whale. Then someone discovered that the largest living thing in the world was actually the 106-acre, 47,000-tree Pando aspen grove in central Utah, which genetic testing revealed to be a single organism.

With its enormous network of underground roots and symbiotic relationship with a vast ecosystem of fungi, that aspen grove is a great metaphor for UnitedHealth Group. United, whose revenues amount to more than 8% of the U.S. health system, is the largest health care enterprise in the world.” Let’s pick up from there for people like me who haven’t been paying as much attention as maybe they should have, and still think that United is mainly a health insurance company. That is not true and hasn’t been for some time, has it?

Goldsmith: The difference between United and a health insurance company is that it also has $226 billion worth of care system revenues in it, some of which are services rendered to United and other, believe it or not, services rendered to United competitors. So, there isn’t anything remotely that size in the health insurance world. That $226 billion is more than double the size of Kaiser. Just to give you an idea of the scale.

Rovner: Which, of course, is the other companies that are both insurers and providers. That’s pretty much the only other really big one, right?

Goldsmith: Yes. I have a graphic in the piece that shows the part, which is the care delivery part of Optum, is just about the same size as Kaiser, but it generates six and a half billion dollars in profit versus Kaiser’s $323 million. So it dwarfs Kaiser in terms of profitability even though it’s about the same size top line.

Rovner: So split it up for people who don’t know. What are sort of the main components that make up UnitedHealth Group?

Goldsmith: Well, there’s a very large health insurance business, $280 billion health insurance business. Then, there is a care system called Optum Health, which is about $95 billion. It has 90,000 affiliated or employed docs, a huge chain of MedExpress urgent care centers, surgery centers, a couple of very large home health care agencies. So that’s the care delivery part of United.

There’s Optum Insight, which is about $19 billion. That’s the part that Change Healthcare was inside of. It’s a business intelligence and corporate services business, and consulting business, that also manages care systems financials. And then, finally, there’s Optum Rx, which is about $116 billion, so a little bit more than half of Optum’s total, and that is a pharmacy benefit management company. Believe it or not, the third-largest one. So there are bigger pharmacy benefits management companies than Optum, but those are the three big pieces.

Rovner: I feel like this is almost as big as a lot of the government health programs, isn’t it?

Goldsmith: Yeah. I mean, I can’t remember top line how big the VA [Department of Veterans Affairs] is these days, but it’s VA scale, but it’s in a bunch of little pieces scattered all over the United States. I mean, that’s the big part of all of this. The care system is in at least 30 states. I have a map showing where some of the locations are. That map took me months to find. There isn’t a real registry of what the company owns, but it is a vast enterprise. And they’re great assets, if you’ll pardon a financial term for them.

Some of the finest risk-bearing multispecialty group practices in the United States are a part of Optum: Healthcare Partners based in Los Angeles; The Everett Clinic; the former Fallon Clinic, and Atrius in New England, which are the two finest risk-bearing, multispecialty physician groups in the Northeast. They weren’t dredging the bottom here at all. They got a tremendous number of high-quality groups that they’ve pulled together in the organization. The issue is it really an organization or is it a collection of assets that have been acquired at a very rapid pace over a period of the last 15 years.

Rovner: One of the things that I think the Change Healthcare hack proved for a lot of people is that nobody realized what a significant percentage of claims processing could go through one company. You have to wonder, have regulators, either at the state or federal level, kind of fallen down on this and sort of let this happen so that when somebody hacks into it, half the system seems to go down?

Goldsmith: The federal government challenged the Change acquisition and basically lost in court. They were unable to make the case. They were arguing that Change controlling all of these transactions of not only United but a lot of other insurers gave them access to information that enabled United to have some type of unfair competitive advantage. It was a difficult argument to make that didn’t make it. But the result of the Change acquisition was that about a third of the U.S. health system’s money flowed through one company’s leaky pipes.

And what we’re sort of learning as we learn more about Change is that there were something like a hundred separate programs inside Change, all of which somehow were vulnerable to this hack. And I think that’s one of the things that I think when [Sen.] Ron Wyden and [Sen.] Mark Warner get around to getting some facts about this, they’re going to wonder how did that happen. How could you have that many applications, that loosely tied together, that they were vulnerable to something like this?

And what my spies tell me is that a hacker, and it could have been a single hacker, not a country, but one guy was able to drop down into all of those data silos, vacuum out the data, and then delete the backups, so that United was basically left with no claims trail, no provider directories, nothing, and has had to reconstruct them; panicky reconstruction here in the last six weeks.

Rovner: Which I imagine is what’s taking so long for some of these providers to get back online.

Goldsmith: Julie, the part I don’t understand, is if it is true that that Change was processing a trillion and a half dollars worth of claims a year, a month interruption is $125 billion. That’s $125 billion that didn’t get paid to providers of care after the fact of them rendering the care. So the extent of the damage done by this is difficult to comprehend.

I mean, I have a lot of provider contacts and friends. Some of them, believe it or not, had no Change exposure at all because their main payers didn’t use Change. Some of them, it was all their payers used, and cash flow just ceased, and they had to go to the bank and borrow money to make their payrolls. None of this, for some reason, has made it in its full glory out into the press, and it isn’t that there aren’t incredibly high-quality business reporters in this field. There are.

Rovner: I know. I live in Maryland. I’ve driven over the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore. I know what it means. I mean, basically took apart the Baltimore Beltway. I mean, no longer goes in a circle. And I know how big the Port of Baltimore is, and I feel like everybody can understand that because it’s visceral. You can see it. There’s video of the bridge falling down. There isn’t video of somebody hacking into Change Healthcare and stopping a lot of the health system in its tracks.

Goldsmith: The metaphor that occurred to me, as you know, I’m a metaphor junkie, was actually Deepwater Horizon, and of course, we had a camera on that gushing well the whole time. This is like a gusher of red ink, a Deepwater Horizon-sized gusher of red ink that went on for a month. From what I’m able to understand, people are able to file the claims now. How many people have actually been paid for the month or six weeks’ worth of work they’ve done is elusive. And I still don’t have access to really good facts on how much of what they owed people they’ve actually paid.

I do know a lot of my investor analyst friends are waiting for United’s first-quarter financials to drop, which will probably show a four- or five-day drop in their medical loss ratio because of all the claims they were not able to pay, and therefore money was sitting in their coffers earning, what, 5% interest. That’s going to be kind of a festival when the first-quarter financials drop. And, of course, it isn’t just United, Humana, the Elevance, Cigna, all the rest of them. A lot of these folks use Change to process their claims. So there’s going to be a swollen offer here on the health insurance side from a month of not paying their bills.

Rovner: Well, is it the next Standard Oil? Is it going to have to be taken apart at some point?

Goldsmith: Yeah, but I mean, the question is, on what basis? Our health care system is so vast and fragmented, even a generous interpretation of antitrust laws, you’d have trouble finding a case. The Justice Department or FTC [Federal Trade Commission] is going to try again. But I’ll tell you, I think they’ve got their work cut out for them. I think the real issue isn’t anti-competitiveness, it’s a national security issue. If you have a third of the health systems dollars flowing through one company’s leaky pipes, that’s not an antitrust problem. It’s a national security problem, and I think there are some folks in the U.S. Senate that are righteously pissed about this.

There’s a lot of fact-finding that needs to happen here and a lot of work that needs to be done to make this system more secure. And I’ve also argued to make it simpler. Change was processing 15 billion transactions a year. That’s 44 transactions for every man, woman, and child in the country, and that was only a third of them. What are we doing with 100 billion transactions? What’s up with that? It beggars the imagination to believe that we to minutely manage every single one of those transactions. That is just an astonishing waste of money. It’s also an incredible insult to our care system. The assumption that there at any moment, every one of those folks could potentially be ripping us off, and we can’t have that.

Rovner: So we’re spending all of this money to try and not be ripped off for presumably less money.

Goldsmith: Hundreds of billions of dollars, but who’s counting?

Rovner: It’s kind of a depressing picture of what our health system is becoming, but I feel like it is kind of an apt picture for what our health system has become.

Goldsmith: It’s the level of mistrust. The idea that every one of his patients is trying to get a free lunch, and every doctor is trying to pad his income. We’ve built a system based on those twin assumptions. And when you think about them for a minute, they really are appalling assumptions. Most of what motivated me when I had cancer was fear.

I wasn’t trying to get stuff I wasn’t entitled to or didn’t need. I wanted to figure out a way to not be killed by the thing in my throat. And my doctors were motivated by a fear that if they let me go, maybe my heirs would sue them. I guess this idea that we are just helpless pawns of a behaviorist model of incentives, I think the economists ran wild with this thesis. And I think it’s given us a system that doesn’t work for anybody.

Rovner: Is there a way to fix it?

Goldsmith: I think we ought to cut the number of transactions in half. We ought to go and look at how many prior authorizations are really needed. Is this a model we really want to continue with, effectively universal surveillance of every clinical decision? We ought to be paying in bundles. We ought to pay our primary care physicians monthly for every patient that they see that’s a continuing patient and not chisel them over every single thing they do. We ought to pay for complex care in bundles where a cancer treatment is basically one transaction instead of hundreds.

I think we could get a long way to simplifying and reducing the absurd administrative overburden by doing those things. I also think that the idea that we have 1,100 health insurers. United’s the biggest, but it’s not by any means the only health insurer. There’s 1,100 rule sets that determine what data you need in order to pay a claim and whether a claim is justified or not. I think that’s a crazy level of variation. So I think we need to attack the variation. We’ve had health policy conversations about this for years and not done anything, and I think it’s really time to do it.

Rovner: Maybe this will give some incentive to some people to actually do something. Jeff Goldsmith, thank you so much.

Goldsmith: Julie. It’s good talking to you.

Rovner: OK. We are back, and time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Tami, you’ve already done yours this week. Lauren, why don’t you go next?

Weber: Yeah. I think we’re all keeping an eye on this in this podcast, but the title of this story is “,” which was written by my colleagues, Lena Sun and Rachel Roubein. Also, great pieces by Helen Branswell in the Texas Tribune on this as well.

But, essentially, just so listeners know, there has been a case of human bird flu detected, which is very concerning. As all of us on this podcast know, avian human flu is one of the worst-case scenarios in terms of a pathogen and infectiousness. As of right now, this is only one person. It seems to be isolated. We don’t know. We’ll see how this continues to mutate, but definitely something to keep an eye on for potential threat risk. TBD.

Rovner: Yeah. It is something I think that every health reporter is watching with some concern. Although, as you point out, we really don’t know very much yet. And so far, we have not seen. I think what the experts are watching for is human-to-human transmission, and we haven’t seen that yet.

Kenen: And this person seems to have a mild case, from the limited information we have, which is also a good sign for both that individual and everybody else in terms of spreadability.

Rovner: But we will continue to watch that space. Joanne.

Kenen: Well, you said enough bleak, but I’m afraid this is somewhat bleak. This is a piece by Kate Martin from APM Reports, which is part of American Public Media, and it was published in cooperation with The 19th, and the headline is “.” So there’s a very, very strong sort of everybody points to it as great law in Illinois saying that what kind of care hospitals have to provide to sexual assault victims and what kind of testing and counseling and everything. This whole series of services that legally they must do, and they’re not doing it. Even in cases of children being assaulted, they’re sending people 40 miles away, 80 miles away, 40 miles away. They’re not doing rape kits. They’re not connecting them to the counselors, et cetera. It is a pretty horrifying story. It begins with a story of a 4-year-old because they didn’t do what they were supposed to do. The father was the suspected perpetrator, and because the hospital didn’t do what they should have done he still has joint custody of this little girl.

Rovner: My story this week is from our podcast colleague, Alice [Miranda] Ollstein, and her Politico colleague, Megan Messerly, and it’s called “.” And it’s about the fact that while maybe not trying to outlaw IVF entirely, the anti-abortion movement does want to dramatically change how it’s practiced in the U.S.

For example, they would like to decrease the number of embryos that can be created and transplanted, both of which would likely make the already expensive treatment even more expensive still. Anti-abortion activists also would like to ban pre-implantation genetic testing so that, “Defective embryos can’t be discarded.” Except that couples with genes for deadly diseases often turn to IVF exactly because they don’t want to pass those diseases on to their children, and they would like to test them before they are implanted.

In other words, the anti-abortion movement may or may not be coming for contraception, but it definitely is coming for IVF. OK, that is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our technical guru, Francis Ying, and our editor Emmarie Huetteman. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can still find me at X, , or at Bluesky and at Threads. Tami, where can we find you?

Luhby: I’m at .

Rovner: There you go. Joanne.

Kenen: on X, and on Threads.听

Rovner: Lauren.

Weber: on X